Greed as in people that abondon all morals for material and money.

If someone is both they will continue to live with only one of those.

Just curious what leftists target more.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    17 hours ago

    I understand what you’re saying, I just reject it. You put the role of the individual over the collective in rejecting a socialist state as a method of reaching collectivized ownership, and conflate democracy with dictatorship without basis.

    The vanguard exists whether formalized or not, all it is is the most advanced politically of the revolutionary class. As there is a difference between a first year medical student and a seasoned surgeon, there will always be differences in political skill among the people. The advantage of formalizing the most advanced is that it becomes visible, democratizable, and accountable, rather than shadowy and elitist.

    We can learn a lot from the experience of the feminist movement in structure, actually, where the initial rejection of formalized structures resulted in counter-productiveness. Jo Freeman’s The Tyranny of Structurelessness is an excellent overview of this.

    Democratic Centralism just means individuals are beholden to the collective decisions of the group, and are expected to uphold them. It’s the best tool for using the working class’s best advantage, our numbers, into one aligned spear, rather than a formless blob lashing out in different directions. An example of the benefits of aligning is the LGBTQ+ movement, the TERFs end up being less effective because fighting for the liberation of all unites greater forces, and that’s ignoring the evils of transphobia.

    I understand where you’re coming from, I used to be an anarchist myself. I suggest you actually make it an effort to engage with Marxism-Leninism and the theory and practice of Marxist-Leninists. If you want a place to start, I made an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list.


    Edit: saw your addendum on the USSR and PRC. Both are excellent examples of the working class in power achieving dramatic results and improving the lives of the working class. Tripling of literacy rates, doubling of life expectancies, achieving dramatic improvements in science and well-being, fighting sexism and racism.

    As for Trotsky, he was assassinated because he was organizing terrorist groups against the USSR after being bitter that his suicidal plan of Permanent Revolution, that saw the peasantry as an enemy of the proletariat, lost out democratically to Socialism in One Country. It wasn’t because he was just a critic, he was a traitor and a terrorist.

    The Zapatistas do reject the western label of anarchist. They have horizontalist structures but reject western labelling.

    The EZLN and its larger populist body the FZLN are NOT Anarchist. Nor do we intend to be, nor should we be.

    Over the past 500 years, we have been subjected to a brutal system of exploitation and degradation few in North America have ever experienced.

    It is apparent from your condescending language and arrogant short-sightedness that you understand very little about Mexican History or Mexicans in general.

    Our struggle was raging before anarchism was even a word, much less an ideology with newspapers and disciples. Our struggle is older than Bakunin or Kropotkin. We are not willing to lower our history to meet some narrow ideology exported from the same countries we fought against in our Wars for independence. The struggle in Mexico, Zapatista and otherwise, is a product of our histories and our cultures and cannot be bent and manipulated to fit someone else’s formula, much less a formula not at all informed about our people, our country or our histories. We as a movement are not anarchist.

    We see narrow-minded ideologies like anarchism… as tools to pull apart Mexicans into more easily exploitable groups.

    But what really enraged [us is] the familiar old face of colonialism shining through your good intentions. Once again we Mexicans [find ourselves put into a position where we] are not as good as the all knowing North American Imperialist who thinks himself more aware, more intelligent and more sophisticated politically than the dumb Mexican. This attitude, though hidden behind thin veils of objectivity, is the same attitude that we have been dealing with for 500 years, where someone else in some other country from some other culture thinks they know what is best for us more than we do ourselves.

    Once again, the anarchists in North America know better than us about how to wage a struggle we have been engaged in since 300 years before their country was founded and can therefore, even think about using us as a means to “advance their project.” That is the same exact attitude Capitalists and Empires have been using to exploit and degrade Mexico and the rest of the third world for the past five hundred years.

    Even though [you talk] a lot about revolution, the attitudes and ideas held by [you] are no different than those held by Cortes, Monroe or any other corporate imperialist bastard you can think of. Your intervention is not wanted nor are we a “project” for some high-minded North Americans to profit off.

    So long as North American anarchists hold and espouse colonialist belief systems they will forever find themselves without allies in the third world. The peasants in Bolivia and Ecuador, no matter how closely in conformity with your rigid ideology, will not appreciate your condescending colonial attitudes anymore than would the freedom fighters in Papua New Guinea or anywhere else in the world.

    Colonialism is one of the many enemies we are fighting in this world and so long as North Americans reinforce colonial thought patterns in their “revolutionary” struggles, they will never be on the side of any anti-colonial struggle anywhere. We in the Zapatista struggle have… asked the world to… respect the historical context we are in and think about the actions we do to pull ourselves from under the boots of oppression.

    Source

    Mutual Aid is a good thing, but it does not create a fully collectivized and planned economy.

    • birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      9 hours ago

      No, you appear not to understand it fully. It is true that I put the role of the individual as more important, but in a way where the individual helps the collective.

      Under capitalism, the individual is motivated to profit at the expense of others; whereas with anarchocommunism, the individual is motivated to work together.

      I reject the state because it will lead to tyranny. You presume that I conflate democracy with dictatorship, but that is not the case; for me, workplace democracy is crucial.

      You also understand what I mean by ‘vanguard’; an organised group that is led, as opposing to federated and decentralised, where no one leads.

      When we formalise the most advanced, then we create a new class. Which fails the entire point of communism! You might say formalising it helps; but I disagree with that. Here we for example do not log peoples’ races or religions; because we believe these to be counterproductive, as they are only ever used by fascists to segregate and create new classes. The lack of logging has resulted in that people do not as much feel animosity for each other based on race or religion; and that we cooperate more together. Indeed, it would be more classless.


      Democratic Centralism just means individuals are beholden to the collective decisions of the group, and are expected to uphold them.

      Yeah, and when a majority votes for abolishing my rights, I sure as hell ain’t gonna uphold that. Democratic centralism, whips, all that can kiss my sorry ass. Screw that shit. It is authoritarian, period. There’s no “just” there; you are goodmouthing it. When they silence criticism, we become blind.

      An example of the benefits of aligning is the LGBTQ+ movement, the TERFs end up being less effective because fighting for the liberation of all unites greater forces, and that’s ignoring the evils of transphobia.

      Except that in that case, there is no overarching group that enforces shutting down other opinions; the rejection of transphobia has grown through discussion and cooperation. Take blocking users, for example; it’s something you can do without a larger collective forcing it on you. Sure, there’s defederation as well, but you can always make an alt.


      Edit: saw your addendum on the USSR and PRC. Both are excellent examples of the working class in power achieving dramatic results and improving the lives of the working class. Tripling of literacy rates, doubling of life expectancies, achieving dramatic improvements in science and well-being, fighting sexism and racism.

      While these occur, you should also not discard that millions of people still died under these regimes, just as with capitalism. And that dissidence was repressed; criticise the party, and you’re gone.

      What improvement in wellbeing is there then, when one cannot criticise? What improvement in fighting sexism is there, when queers were not allowed to be themselves in the USSR (and you can die for it in today’s mafia Russia) and even up to today, in the PRC, cannot do so?

      What improvements in fighting racism, when Russification displaced a ton of people and hampered the Baltics’ selfdetermination, under an agenda of repression and ethnic cleansing? Indeed the US has far more of these problems; but it would be foolish to not also acknowledge the terribility of authoritarianism!


      When I speak of communism, I speak of true liberation, not establishing yet another tyranny.

      You’re goodmouthing Trotsky’s assassination. I know enough. I have one word of advice: stop and think about what you’re doing: should people be murdered at all? Thanks for the good discussion, but I’ve no need for talk like this. The whole “he was organising terrorism against Stalin” is literally a lie that Stalin spread himself. He lied also about who killed Trotsky, saying it was another Trotskyist, when he gave the order himself.

      Come back to me when you don’t just criticise capitalism, but all forms of authoritarianism, totalitarian communism such as that of the USSR, Cuba, and the PRC included. We share the same fight, but that doesn’t mean you have to lick the authoritarian boot.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        16 hours ago

        I understand perfectly well, again, I’m a former anarchist. We’ve both read a lot of the same anarchist theory, the difference is that I’ve rejected it as I’ve read it and also read Marxist-Leninist theory.

        My critique of anarchism is the same as it has been for centuries for Marxists, cooperative ownership as opposed to collectivized ownership gives rise to social striation on the basis of different geography and production, which gives rise to capitalism. The state doesn’t give rise to capitalism, capitalism gives rise to the state.

        You keep saying you reject workers states because they lead to “tyrannny,” without justifying your claim, and further go on to say democratic centralism is dictatorship. How is workplace democracy to function if the outcomes are not binding? Any useful applications of democracy must be binding, otherwise nothing gets done.

        As for your point against vanguards as being a class, this is wrong, flat-out. Vanguards are subsections of the revolutionary class, not a class in and of themselves, as they are formed from the working class, elected by it, and hold the same relations to production. A manager is not a class in capitalism, but a subsection of the proletariat.


        Your argument against democratic centralism is an argument against democracy. Minority rights are absolutely crucial to a functioning democracy, but thay’s fully compatible with democratic centralism.

        TERFs are less effective than unified, intersectional groups. I recommend reading Leslie Feinberg’s Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink or Blue.


        The struggles faced by socialist states were real, yes, but it is a good thing to suppress fascists, Tsarists, imperialists, and terrorists. This is a fact of life, if you do not stamp out fascism, it will stamp you out. The USSR was more progressive on queer rights than western countries. Alexandra Kollontai was a bisexual woman and one of the most important figures in early socialist society. The GDR was giving state-run gender affirming care. Queer rights in the PRC are rapidly improving, one of their most beloved celebrities, Xin Jing, is a transwoman, and Cuba’s family code is among the most progressive in the world. Socialism enabled this.

        “Russification” wasn’t really a problem. The USSR took national liberation very seriously. The fact that they established common methods of writing for communication existed alongside national autonomy in the various SSRs and SFSRs. You can read testemonials from various travelers to the USSR like Paul Robeson:

        In Russia I felt for the first time like a full human being. No color prejudice like in Mississippi, no color prejudice like in Washington. It was the first time I felt like a human being.

        And yes, killing Trotsky, who was organizing terrorist attacks on Soviet citizens and government officials, was a good thing. Killing terrorists that threaten your people and Nazis is a necessary function of society.


        Also, can’t help but notice you ignored that the Zapatistas despise being called by western labeling like “anarchists,” did you miss that part?

        I’m not going to apologize for being a Marxist, nor for advocating for socialism as a means to eventually erase the state and thus any speak of authoritarianism. I will not be an enemy of existing socialism or of the working class of those countries.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            9 hours ago

            Nope, socialism is popular in China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. The people like their system, and support their governments. Calling me “auth” for supporting them is a bit silly.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          9 hours ago

          No, I don’t, actually. For starters, all states are authoritarian, as all states are means by which the class in charge exerts its authority. To get rid of the state, all property needs to be collectivized, which both gets rid of class and the state itself. That means its good for the working class to have a hold of that authority, and use it against the Capitalist class. There’s no “promising to abolish” anything, the state gradually withers away with respect to class withering away as property is sublimated and collectivized.

          I am a Marxist, yes. I became one after engaging with history, theory, logic, and practice. The fact that poor logic and false history doesn’t sway me doesn’t diminish my points. I haven’t seen any ethical arguments being brought up here.

          • WillStealYourUsername@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            9 hours ago

            all states are authoritarian

            Not in the same ways. You support dictatorships where workers have no power, nor the means to eventually hold power later down the line. I support neither capitalist regimes nor dictatorships pretending to be socialist.

            To get rid of the state, all property needs to be collectivized, which both gets rid of class and the state itself.

            Yes.

            There’s no “promising to abolish” anything, the state gradually withers away with respect to class withering away as property is sublimated and collectivized.

            No marxist can describe how this will happen. The dictators in charge do not have incentives to give away their power, nor are there other mechanisms in place that can bring about socialism. It’s literally just propaganda. Inequality in china is not withering away, there’s just a growing middle class the same way we had a growing middle class in other places where industrialization happened. The state owning and running things does not equate to socialism. It could, if there was democracy of some kind rather than oligarchy supplemented with very minor political participation from a fraction of the population.

            I am a Marxist, yes. I became one after engaging with history, theory, logic, and practice. The fact that poor logic and false history doesn’t sway me doesn’t diminish my points. I haven’t seen any ethical arguments being brought up here.

            Your auth states commit all the evils of capitalist empires and yet you still defend them. That’s not exactly ethical. Authoritarianism can’t be ethical in practice because of the incentives the people in power have to keep their power, and the things they do to keep it. “Communist” states are far more authoritarian than most liberal democracies, which is why I call them authoritarian. I call you authoritarian because you defend them and wish to implement similar oligarchies/dictatorships elsewhere. This is not to say I like liberalism, just by comparison your system is in many ways worse. Unions are way more suppressed, people are less active politically, and there are no big benefits to make up for it. Genocide is still happening, billionaires are still being produced, freedom of speech is still suppressed, etc. Like yeah we can sit here and compare metrics and see both capitalist and marxist states are doing good and bad in all sorts of different ways. Both systems work to a point. I don’t care. I want actual democracy. I want actual freedom. I want actual socialism, or at least a system which can produce socialism unlike your auth vanguard states.

            I will be blocking you after this.

            Edit: To me the big mystery is why defend these states? Why aim for vanguard states? Can’t we aim for something better rather than something that has “succeeded”? Why do we have to choose between liberalism and marxism when we can instead try to work towards actual socialism?

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              Claiming I support states where the workers have no power, without doing the legwork to explain how that’s the case, is just smearing. It isn’t a point. The socialist states I support are those that are broadly recognized as such by socialist and communist organizations and states, I am not acting out of the ordinary for doing so.

              Marxists have described the withering of the state. From Engels:

              When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not “abolished”. It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase: “a free State”, both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific inefficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand.

              To Lenin’s State and Revolution, which centers this very issue. Marxists have written about the state and how it withers away upon collectivization for centuries, this isn’t a new thing. Administration is not the same thing as a state. Further, the PRC is democratic:

              The rest of your comment is a baseless, unsupported rant about socialist states supposedly being “just as bad” as capitalist states, despite the opposite being the case when it comes to uplifting the working class. From doubling of life expectancy, to certified safety nets, to tripling of literacy rates, to certified healthcare, to decolonial action, to fighting imperialism, socialist states around the world are rising while capitalism is dying, and you sit on the fence and say real socialism isn’t good enough for you while you live in a western country. It’s social chauvanism, plain and simple.

              I don’t block people, nor would I announce that I am going to. I don’t take ill-founded insults or libel seriously, either.


              To respond to your edit, here:

              Edit: To me the big mystery is why defend these states? Why aim for vanguard states? Can’t we aim for something better rather than something that has “succeeded”? Why do we have to choose between liberalism and marxism when we can instead try to work towards actual socialism?

              I defend the achievements of really existing socialism, that have brought dramatic democratization and uplifting of the working class. From Russia to China to Cuba to many other countries, socialism has proven to be extremely successful at meeting the needs of the people. We need to use a vanguard because it works, and vanguards themselves will appear whether we formalize them and democratize them as they have been in AES countries, or if we ignore them and let them form naturally and unaccountably.

              We should always aim for better, but when that takes the form of saying “real socialism isn’t good enough,” then that becomes an incredibly privledged and chauvanistic viewpoint. Workers fought and died to win socialism in their countries, and are making constant improvements. This is actual socialism, not the socialism that lives only as a perfect ideal in our heads. Rather than saying that they did it the wrong way, or that they didn’t fight hard enough, we should respect the tremendous gains they’ve made and try our best to carry out our own revolutions, charting a path to a better world collectively.

              When we oppose the working class in socialist countries for the mistakes they make, and declare these states enemies when they ought not to be, we make the same mistakes as those who oppose Palestinian liberation because they aren’t very queer friendly (and I say this as a pansexual person myself). It completely aids the imperialist narrative and serves as justification for color revolution and massive setback on the path to building socialism. It’s against solidarity.