Per the title. If an animal dies out in nature without any human involvement, shouldn’t it be considered vegan to harvest any of the useful parts from it (not nessicarily meat, think hide), since there was no human-caused suffering involved?
Similarly, is driving a car not vegan because of the roadkill issue?
Especially curious to hear a perspective from any practicing moral vegans.
Also: I am not vegan. That’s why I’m asking. I’m not planning on eating roadkill thank you. Just suggesting the existence of animal-based vegan leather.
There’s this Hindu sect whose adherents wear veils, sweep the floor before them, and/or tread very slowly and carefully to avoid injuring, killing or eating any small insects. As you said, it’s about doing as much as you can, but if it were a competition they’d win for sure.
I think you mean Jainism? It isn’t Hindu.
They also have a very strict vegetarian diet, they won’t even eat root vegetables so burrowing insects aren’t disturbes
I mean defining new religion is always tricky, Hinduism is such a large collection of beliefs, if you go too wide Jainism and Buddhism and Sikhism would unfold into Hinduism and if you go too narrow Hinduism is at best group of 12-13 separate religion.
The deeper you look the more confusing it is, while Jain texts acknowledge certain “Hindu” deities like Indra, other parts of universe building are entirely different, and if they are different where did Indra come from?
Anyway I like the distinction of dharmic religions and then defining sects such as Jain, Vaishnav, shaiva, Buddhism etc etc. They all have the concept of Dharma, Karma and Moksha. So they are all kind of interoperable in terms of lifestyle. There are sects of Hinduism that are more different than mainstream to the point it’d be hard to call them Hindu, but they self identify as Hindu, while there are sects of buddishm that are so similar to Hinduism, it’s unclear why they consider themselves a separate religion. I think at the end the distinctions between dharmic religion are always because of some geopolitical power game.
Yeah but if you ask a jain they’d say they’re not Hindu. So take it for it means.
I would argue Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism are as distinct as Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
Which are the sects of Buddhism that are so similar to Hinduism? (Curiosity, not attack - i studied Buddhism in depth for my degree, but that was 20 years ago)
I would argue that Buddhism is as distinct from Hinduism as an agnostic is from the abrahamic faiths.
If you really look at Buddhism, it’s a critique of Hindu concepts such as Atman.
Of course it incorporates a lot of those concepts, because the Buddha was communicating his critique to folks who used those concepts.
For example, the four brahmavajara’s are framed in a Hindu understanding of the godhead. That doesn’t mean the Buddha believed in Brahma beyond it’s conceptualization by Hindus.
He was merely using it as a teaching device to point out the importance of the four immeasurable minds to a Brahmin who asked him what the mind of God is like.
This is a great take. Buddhism is more a philosophy of a worldview than a religious worldview.
Buddhism taking on concepts of other religions, even deities, is upaya (skilful means). Its a way draw as many people as possible out of suffering as possible. I seem to remember that’s the whole idea of mahayana Buddhism: getting as many people as possible at least partway towards enlightenment is better than only a few all the way.
Mahayana also reframes the goal toward practicing compassion in the moment and other pro social concepts (no self), rather than enlightenment of the individual.
A Western Zen teacher was asked by a student why the Bodhisattva vows are unattainable. Suffering is endless, living beings are innumerable. But we vow to end all suffering and lead all beings to enlightenment.
The Zen teacher replied, essentially, they’re silly because being helpful is the goal.
Mayahana also helped a lot with reification that snuck in during the five hundred years after the Buddha’s death. The abhidharma for example reduces the mental factors into individual components or atoms and treats them as though they have an essence or self.
Indian Buddhist philosophers such as Nagarjuna, pointed out that even these are interdependent. Jewels in Indra’s net.
For context, I’ve been studying and practicing off and on for around a decade. Took my precepts in the Plum Village Zen tradition under Thich Nhat Hanh’s lineage, and also study and practice under the guidance of a Theravada monk and scholor named Bhikkhu Analayo.
All concepts are upaya. Some are more skillful than others, such as the Dharma taught by the Buddha. But they’re signs on a map, rather than a dogma to hold onto.
Of course, individual teachers and practitioners are human, and they may see things differently than I do. But ultimately I view Buddhism as a critique of concepts, that points at the interdependent (empty) and impermanent nature of things. And most world religions seem to lean much more heavily on dogma.
But again individual practitioners in other religions may be more enlightened. I know Thich Naht Hanh was friends with a lot of Christians and studied theology in the West as a young man. Some of his closest friends included monastics like Thomas Merton. And some activists such as Daniel Berrigan and Dr King. Hanh believed that the heart of Christ and the heart of the Buddha were pointing at the same ultimate ground.
And I could also argue that Jesus was quite critical of Judaism. Though his followers have largely used him for personal and political gain in the 2000 years since his death.
Linked below is a Dharma talk were a Plum Village nun discusses the appropriation of spirituality for the sake of control of the masses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm7NL8mOsEs
Anyway, I’ve read a lot and I’ve studied a lot. I find wisdom in both Theravada and Mahayana. Though I do find the Tibetan tradition problematic, and don’t generally spend much time with their teachings anymore. Though I am drawn to the esoteric teachings and have cribbed quite a bit from the book of the dead, I find Plum Village speaks more to my heart. And without that, the dharma is hard to hear.
I also like systems science by the way. Very similar critique of reification. Or ‘selfing’.