And now, when writing this… Argh. Uyghurs. You absolutely cannot compare it to what Nazis did, but if you compare it to what other fascist countries died then yes, that’s quite some consequence.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
If we are using that to tell how much like Nazis a nation is plenty of democratic countries are a lot closer to Nazi Germany than China.
In the end, tankie is a type of a socialist, and one becomes socialist through a will to do good. Being a tankie is some EXTREMELY fucking ill-advised way to do good, because the result is indeed very very bad.
I’m not claiming that China has never done anything that I don’t agree with, however if we are measuring their results, it’s hard to conclude that it’s ill advised. In the last 40 years China has lifted nearly a billion people out of extreme poverty and has done so with out endless cycles of wars.
Meanwhile democratic nations in the West have seen more of their citizens slide into to poverty while killing millions of people in forever wars.
But in the end, what’s being done to Uyghurs is just horror. Being thrown into a concentration camp and being subjected to various inhumane experiments is already on a very high level of evil to have to experience.
Again, I don’t agree with a lot of the CCP policies. That being said, I do think there are some exaggerations when it comes to the Uyghur people, though based on their own information I would say there is a pattern of ethnic prejudice
That being said, even if we use the most inflammatory information from western media and utilize the high estimate of 1.8 million ethnic minorities being put into reeducation camps. That’s less than 1/6th of the Uyghur population in China. Less than the 2 million people currently incarcerated in the US, of those whom nearly 40% are from an ethnic minority who only make up around 10% of the total population.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
Yes, you can. Generally, any country where an ideology goes over individuals’ well-being tends to do this shit. China does, USA does as well. Not terribly surprising.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia.
But is there actually a democratic country where people are handled they way countries such as USA and China do?
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
My point was that any specific economic policy or government style does not necessarily dictate the outcomes of the people it is in charge of. If this is similar to your belief, then I would question why you elected to make a statement that seemed to limit itself to a binary of fascist/“tankies”.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
Again, that is using the most hyperbolic estimate. Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide. It’s definitely not great, and is systemic ethnic prejudice, but I don’t know if that would qualify as a genocide.
The US put 80% of Japanese Americans in interment camps during ww2 and I’ve never heard that referenced as a genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
I think I explained in the last paragraph of my original argument that it was to provide relevant comparison of similar examples that were not fascist nor “tankies”.
In your claim you said that you shouldn’t be a tankie because it led to bad/evil results. Would you also claim you shouldn’t be a liberal democracy because it leads to bad/evil results?
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia.
First of all…how is the US not a democratic country? It may not be a great one, but it still has free and fair elections. If the US is not a liberal democracy… What is it?
Secondly, there have been plenty examples of democratic countries having unjustifiable foreign and domestic policies.
Just off the top of my head Canada has a brutal history of suppressing their native inhabitants that endures to the modern age. Both france and the UK also had interment camps during ww2. The UK committed a genocidal famine against ireland and Bengal as a democratic nation. Most of the worst aspects of colonialism were conducted after European powers transitioned out of absolute monarchies into democracies. South Africa and Israel both conducted an apartheid state in modern times, one going further into a genocide of Palestinians.
And more than likely the nation you currently live in has materially or militarily aided the US in one of their unjustifiable wars in the middle East.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
If we are using that to tell how much like Nazis a nation is plenty of democratic countries are a lot closer to Nazi Germany than China.
I’m not claiming that China has never done anything that I don’t agree with, however if we are measuring their results, it’s hard to conclude that it’s ill advised. In the last 40 years China has lifted nearly a billion people out of extreme poverty and has done so with out endless cycles of wars.
Meanwhile democratic nations in the West have seen more of their citizens slide into to poverty while killing millions of people in forever wars.
Again, I don’t agree with a lot of the CCP policies. That being said, I do think there are some exaggerations when it comes to the Uyghur people, though based on their own information I would say there is a pattern of ethnic prejudice
That being said, even if we use the most inflammatory information from western media and utilize the high estimate of 1.8 million ethnic minorities being put into reeducation camps. That’s less than 1/6th of the Uyghur population in China. Less than the 2 million people currently incarcerated in the US, of those whom nearly 40% are from an ethnic minority who only make up around 10% of the total population.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
Yes, you can. Generally, any country where an ideology goes over individuals’ well-being tends to do this shit. China does, USA does as well. Not terribly surprising.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia. But is there actually a democratic country where people are handled they way countries such as USA and China do?
My point was that any specific economic policy or government style does not necessarily dictate the outcomes of the people it is in charge of. If this is similar to your belief, then I would question why you elected to make a statement that seemed to limit itself to a binary of fascist/“tankies”.
Again, that is using the most hyperbolic estimate. Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide. It’s definitely not great, and is systemic ethnic prejudice, but I don’t know if that would qualify as a genocide.
The US put 80% of Japanese Americans in interment camps during ww2 and I’ve never heard that referenced as a genocide.
I think I explained in the last paragraph of my original argument that it was to provide relevant comparison of similar examples that were not fascist nor “tankies”.
In your claim you said that you shouldn’t be a tankie because it led to bad/evil results. Would you also claim you shouldn’t be a liberal democracy because it leads to bad/evil results?
First of all…how is the US not a democratic country? It may not be a great one, but it still has free and fair elections. If the US is not a liberal democracy… What is it?
Secondly, there have been plenty examples of democratic countries having unjustifiable foreign and domestic policies.
Just off the top of my head Canada has a brutal history of suppressing their native inhabitants that endures to the modern age. Both france and the UK also had interment camps during ww2. The UK committed a genocidal famine against ireland and Bengal as a democratic nation. Most of the worst aspects of colonialism were conducted after European powers transitioned out of absolute monarchies into democracies. South Africa and Israel both conducted an apartheid state in modern times, one going further into a genocide of Palestinians.
And more than likely the nation you currently live in has materially or militarily aided the US in one of their unjustifiable wars in the middle East.