Studies are conflicted on whether it reduces risk of diseases, but what’s definitely true is that removing the foreskin removes most of the nerves associated with pleasure for the penis.
Of course it doesn’t take away all sexual pleasure, but people who get circumcisions later in life report that their sexual pleasure from sex and masturbation is greatly reduced from before the circumcision. This likely also applies to babies, although there’s no conclusive evidence to support that since people who were circumcised at birth report “normal” amounts of sexual pleasure, though it’s unknown if they and uncircumcised people have the same “normal”.
The reason circumcision became popular in the Western world outside of Jewish and Muslim culture is because of John Harvey Kellogg, the inventor of Corn Flakes, founder of the Kellogg cereal company, and activity against “immoral” sexual activity like masturbation. He invented Corn Flakes as a food to deter masturbation, as he believed that a cause of “unnatural” sexual appetites was flavorful food, so he made a blander source of nutrition to combat the urge to masturbate. He also heavily advocated for circumcision for both children and adults because he believed that it would decrease sexual pleasure for the penis, which would also discourage masturbation.
Take it from a Jew who’s been jerking the gherkin since he was 12: It doesn’t work. Don’t circumcise your baby unless it’s for a religious reason, or if the baby is born with a condition that requires it.
Oh, and among people who both enjoy sex with people with penises and care about whether or not it’s circumcised, it’s pretty evenly split about which variety they actually prefer, with the biggest factor in the preference being that individual’s culture.
Edit: There are a lot of non-Jews criticizing the practice in Judaism. I completely understand, and your criticisms are valid. All I can speak for is my own experience and what I’ve been able to look into. In my case and the case of many Jewish men that I’ve talked to, both religious and non-religious, the rates of resentment for circumcision are much lower among them than among non-Jews who have been circumcised. I understand if you still believe it to be wrong, but do not put out hate speech in the comments. This includes name-calling and generalizations about any particular cultures. If you still believe that it’s wrong for Jews and Muslims to do it, and that religion doesn’t justify it, you are entitled to your opinion. Just please be respectful about it.
Another edit: To build on the first point, consent of the child is a big issue that many parents face when deciding whether or not to circumcise. All I can say about that is that it’s a lot less risky to health to do it in infancy rather than as an adult. Again, I can only speak for myself, but if I hadn’t been circumcised as an infant, I’d be saying a struggle today about whether or not to do it, and it would be painful, mentally traumatizing, and risky, even if done with anesthesia. Yes, it is medically unnecessary in the vast majority of cases, which is why I reiterate that NON-JEWS SHOULD NOT DO IT. Please talk to Jews and get their perspectives before you judge because I can guarantee that they had the same considerations that you’ve had.
Third edit: If you’re not Jewish, there will just be aspects of the Jewish experience that you won’t understand on an intrinsic and fundamental level, just like there are things that I’ll never understand about your culture because I don’t belong to it. It seems that so far, I’m the only Jew who’s given a perspective on this, so these debates on the morality of circumcision are missing a crucial element.
I was wrong to imply that our culture necessitates circumcision itself. What I should have said was that the culture necessitates further discussion for an individual family to know if it’s right for them. That was my fault for using misleading language.
I think the point people are trying to make here is that it shouldn’t even be a discussion in the first place. The procedure is medically unnecessary, and therefore it’s unethical to perform it upon someone who can’t consent. Period.
Consider a different perspective: Say there was a culture that mandated all newborn girls have their hymens torn upon birth. Does that practice sound morally okay to you? It won’t kill the child (I assume; I’m not a doctor), and they’ll probably be able to go on to live a relatively normal life, but you did still make the decision to irreparably change their body for no other reason than “it’s what we do,” without ever asking her if she even wanted to be included in that “we.”
Ask yourself this: What is the meaning in a cultural practice if it’s not performed willingly? Are you part of a culture because you’re born into it, or because you choose to participate in it?
CLARIFICATION REPLY TO EVERYONE I AM DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC WITH: I need to clarify that I am not trying to defend the practice of circumcision, only that I understand from my perspective as a secular circumcised Jew why so many do it. I think the vast majority of people shouldn’t do it and even that many Jews shouldn’t. That’s why I made this post in the first place. I can’t in any good conscience recommend it to anyone, but I also don’t have any kind of authority to advise Jews against it. I can advise non-Jews against it because they ARE NOT JEWISH and therefore DO NOT HAVE A CONNECTION TO THE PRACTICE. I agree with your points on a general moral level.
In Judaism, it’s a lot more complicated than that binary, not just because being Jewish means different things to different people, but because of the history of Judaism from its inception up to now. The issue of consent is a very real one that many parents struggle with during the process of making the decision of whether or not to circumcise.
Can you elaborate on that? I’m honestly trying to understand your perspective, but I’m struggling to interpret the mandate as anything other than “this is our tradition, and we’re entitled to force you (an infant who can’t consent) to participate,” so maybe I’m missing something here. I understand that Jewish people have historically faced (and continue to face) persecution that forced them to hide their culture and practice it more secretly in order to ensure their survival, but I still don’t think that gives them the right to permanently brand their children (nor do I see how it would help the situation). If you disagree or if I’ve misunderstood something, please explain.
Circumcision connects Jews to our culture in a profound way in which you can “feel” the fact that you are part of a long line of a tribe whose way of life has been (partly) preserved over the course of thousands of years despite the efforts of other nations to erase it. To break that chain is to take something away from the Jew, or at least that’s how they often end up feeling if they know they’re Jewish. A lot of religious Jews point to it being the sign of Abraham’s covenant with God, but for Jews who don’t believe that, there is still the element of being a part of something greater than yourself and being a unique culture apart from the other nations, and a constant reminder that yes, you are a Jew, and you have not only the power, but the obligation, to decide what that means for yourself and the family you choose.
There’s a lot more to it than that, but that’s the most basic and succinct way to understand it. The rest of it is more the feeling you get from knowing that you are part of this culture. There are just some intrinsic things you can’t put into words
I can’t really say you’ve convinced me with this. As a first generation African-American, I definitely understand what you mean about the connection to a culture with a rich and unique history; my dad always did all he could to make sure I knew where my people came from and understood the significance of my being here today. That said, he never made the decision for me to be a participant in that culture. He allowed me the agency to decide how I would interact with and accept my own heritage, rather than indelibly marking me with it at my birth. Like you say, he had an obligation to decide what being Kikuyu meant for him, but he also had an obligation to me as my father to let me find my own meaning in it, if I found any at all. Incidentally, my cousin actually underwent circumcision when he turned 14 as a rite of passage in our culture, but it was specifically his decision to do so, not his parents’.
I suspect this is something we just won’t see eye to eye on. I do appreciate you discussing this with me though. Thanks for an interesting conversation.
That’s a valid take and I understand your perspective. The major thing people have a problem with is the lack of consent, which is also one of the main issues that Jewish parents struggle with when deciding whether or not to circumcise. It’s a difficult thought to wrestle with, and I understand and don’t judge parents who don’t do it, but I also understand and don’t judge parents who do, because it’s a deeply personal thing.
I can’t help but think it’s literally exactly the same as ChatGPT telling someone to go commit violence, and then they do.
People realize the person is delusional and corrupted by their fantastical stories and beliefs that AI told them.
When AI does it, people have the wherewithal to recognize the made up stories telling them to commit atrocious acts are the problem, and the person is mentally compromised for believing those made up stories.
And this is no different. Just, AI here is Abrahamic Indoctrination.
CLARIFICATION REPLY TO EVERYONE I AM DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC WITH: I need to clarify that I am not trying to defend the practice of circumcision, only that I understand from my perspective as a secular circumcised Jew why so many do it. I think the vast majority of people shouldn’t do it and even that many Jews shouldn’t. That’s why I made this post in the first place. I can’t in any good conscience recommend it to anyone, but I also don’t have any kind of authority to advise Jews against it. I can advise non-Jews against it because they ARE NOT JEWISH and therefore DO NOT HAVE A CONNECTION TO THE PRACTICE. I agree with your points on a general moral level.
If it was as simple as “The book says to do it, so we do it,” I’d be inclined to believe you, but as a secular Jew, I believe that the stories told in Jewish scripture are just stories. Many of them have good morals for the modern day, many are clearly products of their time and have outdated morals. However, one of the few things that secular Jews maintained to hold on to their cultural identity as Jews in the face of the history of threats to our way of life was the practice of circumcision, because it’s the strongest way to tie us to that identity, as has been shown through thousands of years of evidence-based practice. Of course circumcision doesn’t make you a Jew, as the question of “Who is a Jew?” is its own can of worms, but it’s the thing that makes Jews “feel” the lost like Jews. It’s why, even among secular Jews, resentment for circumcision is much lower than the unnecessarily circumcised non-Jews: It connects us to something greater than ourselves and makes us feel like we’re part of it. Even if we don’t practice, even if we don’t believe in God or that the Scriptures are true stories, a Jew is a Jew. Coincidentally, “a Jew is a Jew” is the only answer to the question of “Who is a Jew?” that every sane and rational Jew can agree on.
The problem is not that a culture necessitates further discussion. The problem is that the infant is *never included in the discussion".
This is a true and valid component of the decision that Jews like me struggle with.
I think it’s OK to abandon tradition when irrefutable evidence of harm emerges. We did a LOT of things differently in the past.
I am not Jewish myself but I grew up in one of the most Jewish parts of the US and I am very much a “fan” of Judaism. One thing I have massive respect for is the importance Judaism places on learning and adapting to new information so for me, the contradiction is confusing. If in the face of overwhelming evidence of the negative affects your only hangup is emotional (tradition), lean on the other things you were taught.
Sometimes you have to just realize that the way many things were done was often barbaric by today’s standards - even if they were acceptable at the time. Christians used to kiss everyone on the mouth at gatherings baptize people (kids and adults alike) in public completely nude. Islam used to allow slavery.
CLARIFICATION REPLY TO EVERYONE I AM DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC WITH: I need to clarify that I am not trying to defend the practice of circumcision, only that I understand from my perspective as a secular circumcised Jew why so many do it. I think the vast majority of people shouldn’t do it and even that many Jews shouldn’t. That’s why I made this post in the first place. I can’t in any good conscience recommend it to anyone, but I also don’t have any kind of authority to advise Jews against it. I can advise non-Jews against it because they ARE NOT JEWISH and therefore DO NOT HAVE A CONNECTION TO THE PRACTICE. I agree with your points on a general moral level.
And yet, the majority of Jews see that evidence and, even if they’re not religious, make the conscious decision to circumcise because they want their children to experience what they did, and are aware of what it meant for them. That’s what circumcision does for the experience of being Jewish.
This is called generational trauma and you have the choice to break the cycle. Jews have suffered enough throughout history, there is no reason to add to it yourselves.
“I suffered so my kids should suffer” is never a reasonable opinion. It’s especially unreasonable when that suffering is permanent for the child
You’re choosing to interpret what I said as passing down suffering. This shows that you don’t actually want a Jewish perspective and want to assume that circumcision causes us to suffer and that we just want to pass that down. You don’t actually want to listen to what I have to say.
I’ll try anyway. Many Jews, both secular and religious, circumcise their children because they themselves did not experience suffering from the circumcision. Some do, sure, but the vast majority of circumcisions are without complications, and those done on Jews do not cause the same level of resentment on the same scale as when non-Jews do it because non-Jews don’t have the cultural context or connection that circumcision provides Jews. That’s what circumcision is for: It’s never to cause suffering. It’s to connect Jews to Judaism in a way that only we understand because there is an inherent, intrinsic, inextricable quality to being born a new that cannot be explained to someone who isn’t Jewish, just like there is with any other culture. If you’re black, there are things about the black experience that you understand but will never be able to get me to understand. Same with being a woman, or gay, or trans.
I’ll also add this: Ask your Jewish friends if they were traumatized by their circumcision. Then all your non-Jewish circumcised friends. I guarantee that there will be some differences in their answers. In the case that a Jew was, in fact, traumatized by their own circumcision, they’ll be much less likely to do it for their own kids.
I’m the modem day, you’ll find that among secular Jews, rates of circumcision are much closer to those of religious Jews than of non-Jews. Why do you think that is?
I didn’t know how else to describe it and figured the opposite of pleasure was suffering. Circumcision causes nerve damage in adults and infants alike which denies them the feeling they were born to experience. To be clear, I don’t believe the goal of circumcision is to cause harm. I believe that harm is the byproduct of circumcision. At the very least, can we agree that removing a piece of skin causes physical damage?
I understand that it helps some people connect with their culture but what about the others? It’s a permanent procedure regardless. If a Jew converts religions, becomes an agnostic/atheist, or even just stops practicing, they will never get full feeling back in their johnsons.
I have had this conversation COUNTLESS times with them over the years so I don’t feel the need to bring it up again. You’re right that Jewish people are less likely to be upset about it but that’s no surprise…They are more likely to have been raised in an environment where it’s commonplace.
It’s not just that it’s commonplace, it’s that they understand what it means. Also, a Jew will never not be a Jew even if they convert to another religion. They can stop identifying as religiously Jewish, but ethnically they’ll still be part of the tribe.