That’s guilt by association. It’s a fallacy. Lots of national leaders and founders were racists and horrible people in various factors. That doesn’t mean the states necessarily were or are or forever will be.

I don’t claim to be anything. You are making all the claims here about who is what. Where I stand agonizing about genocide and dividing everyone up into pro and anti is simply stupid. My understanding is that the current Israeli government and its hardliner supporters are are engaged in a unnecessary escalated conflict, largely motivated by their own beliefs. However, that has not always been the case and various parties in the government do not agree. The conflict in Gaza is part of a much larger history that goes back centuries and isn’t ‘Zionism’.

But I’m interested in history and reality, not moralizing catchphrases and moral grandstanding over issues for which my views have zero political relevance or impact. I’m not a citizen of the state of Israel.

Well I don’t think Nazism is one single thing dude. Not all Nazis are the same and think the same things. Every ideology has internal debates and various camps. It all depends on the specifics, which is why I would rather deal with it user by user and judge users for their actions, not their ideologies/beliefs. I also understand the concept of context. Is a community that is making fun of Nazis by using their slogans, promoting Nazism? A lot of people certainly could not draw the distinction. What about a community that wants to talk about Nazism in a historical context? Is that promoting genocide?

You call it ‘deflection’ I called it being reasonable and not making massive generalizations. Nazism and Zionism are not One Big Thing That is Evil. Lots of people, yourself include, probably have beliefs that are in agreement with several aspects of them, and disagree with others. My beef isn’t with an ideology, it’s with calls to violence, no matter what ideology they are coming from. And lots and lots of people from various ideologies call for violence and perpetuate hate and rage. I see a buttload of it coming from lemmy leftists of various self-identified flavors. If I am going to assume Nazis are evil and bad them for their violent ideology, then I’ve got to basically ban communists/socialists/anarchists too, because by your logic both are equivalently evil.

But the main disagreement we have here is that you think ideologies are the problem. I don’t. I think people are the problem. If a particular insane of ‘Nazis’ has self identified and organized itself around violence and hate, sure I’d ban them. But there are tons of contexts in which discussion of Nazis and their beliefs would be totally permissible and admirable. I myself have done various history projects on the KKK and supremacy and papers on the ideology in my academic career. Am I therefore promoting or believing in Nazi ideology?

In a professional context, like say legit hate groups being investigated by FBI or the press, what is targeted is the actions of the group and the individuals therein. That’s what I’m interested in policing, not thought or discussion.

so which fediverse platform dev isn’t evil?

Yeah because I’m centrist and according to lemmy nutbags I’m already genocidal supremacist by proxy, because to them any ideology outside of marxism-leninism is inherently genocidal or something.

Nor am I naive or arrogant enough to believe I am the singular person who should determine what ‘genocidal’ means. There are UN organizations for that.

If we don’t allow Nazis because they are hateful and violent, why should we allow hateful and violent communists/socialists/anarchists?

Is it the hate and violence we should ban? Why is a Nazi calling to kill non-whites radically worse than a communist calling for the death of non-communists? Both simple think violence and hate is perfectly justified over differences, real or perceived.

And some of us libtard facists think the idea of killing people over any differences, is what is stupid and wrong, no matter what your identity, ideology or belief.

It’s not weird, its’ just that this is how cowards and aspiring despots deal with things. You don’t address them, or let them be seen/heard, you silence them or shut them out. You certainly don’t allow dialogue that might allow for understanding… we can’t have that.

Ironically one of the biggest draws for me, to reddit in the early days, and in the fediverse two years ago, was the notion that people can have differenting opinions and exchange them with civility and learn from each other. But I’m a big gay cishet transexual anti-zionist nazi pedo fascist centrist idiot, or so lemmy.ml users has been telling me the past few months.

they issue is that the lemmy.ml is the lemmy devs instance… and the devs are tankies themselves.

A lot of people don’t use lemmy specifically because of the devs politics. and are on other platforms like piefed.

Personally I don’t condemn products because of the actions/beliefs of their creators, former or present. I don’t practice guilt/shame by association and I think doing so is incredibly toxic behavior. But I’m zionist scum for owning a Soda Stream anyway or something. Probably also for the fact I socialize/date jewish people and israelis regularly in my life.

My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.

But that doesn’t fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.

yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.

i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.

lemmy.ml has multiple posts today about how everyone who disagrees with them is nazi or pedophiles.

such ‘open-minded’ types they are.

citing facts from wikipedia or usa govt data and getted banned from lemmy communities for being a troll because that data isn’t convenient to the narrative the userbase or mods are pushing.

it’s almost as if people hate before informed when information disputes or challenges their over simplified beliefs that it’s just ‘those other bad people’ who are causing everything to be awful.

Aren’t they the new wayfair?

Wayfair is based in my city and notorious for treating their employees like absolute crap and doing the ‘up or out’ business model that only rewards people who work 80hour weeks

most schools offer this for kids.

and a lot of music places offer rentals.

Right?

So many people are ignorant of history. I had someone in another thread screaming at me how this is all because of 2001. As if this stuff didn’t happen before then.

If you stand up against this, everyone on every other side tries to tear you down as a traitor to their own cause(s).

There is no winning in the middle anymore.

one reason people don’t admit they are wrong is because other people will shame and attack them for being wrong.

admitting you were wrong isn’t consequence free. it’s shameful, bad, and weak and others want to punish you for it. hence why people are incentivized to never admit they are wrong… because that often avoids those consequences and a lot of people admire someone who never admits they are wrong as strong and good and they are inspired by it.

There are people who won’t socialize at all unless it involves alcohol

You don’t.

Just live your life. If you don’t want to be atomized, don’t be.

because you’re not lonely. you’re just a jerk.

No, it’s normal.

What is immature is to dwell on it and prevent you from moving on with your life. Like, I’m in my 40s and I meet people who are still hung up on shit that happened to them in high school or college. It’s weird.