Dharma Curious (he/him)

Will follow up asap, have midterms this week and things are a little hectic. Thanks for replying!

Quick question during the interim, though: if Buddhism doesn’t work without rebirth, and there is no soul/atman, and all is devoid or substance/is empty, what is it that’s reborn?

That might be less an answerable question and more a request for reading material. Lol

Part 2

What made them click moving from Christianity?

From as in where I started, not where I left. I’d still consider myself a Christian, just not a traditional Christian, and probably not a trinitarian. But I don’t know how one can be a nondualist and a trinitarian. Haha. Meister Eckhart got in a lot of trouble back in the day, and I’m sure that was part of it.

I like this metaphor!

Me, too! Linguistics was the other great love of my teen years, so it helps me to think in those terms.

Taking this and going back to your comment on universalism. How do you think that can work when there are radically different core beliefs? Makes me think of the Chinese Yiguandao religion which stems from the sanjiao or three teachings tradition mixing Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Christianity, and Islam, lol.

That’s the thing, though, I don’t think there are that many radically different core beliefs. Even something as inherently dualistic as Gnosticism has nondualist branches. I think ultimately there is far more in common, at the core, than there is in difference. It’s the trappings, the metaphors and the explanations that differ. We use different stories to explain similar concepts, and we end up with radically different traditions, but the basic concepts are often very similar. I mean, I’m not suggesting they’re all identical or the same, or even that all different faiths or traditions are ultimately compatible, but that many, many, many of them are trying to say the same thing, it’s mainly the vessels that are change.

Oh yeah this is also very fun. Like how Gilgamesh contains the story of Noah and the flood way before the Tanak wrote it. I find it difficult to balance these manners of thinking. On the one hand I believe Buddhism to be true but find other traditions interesting and potentially helpful. On the other hand I academically recognize the truth in thousands of years of traditions radically affecting one another. I don’t like to randomly mix traditions but I do see “native” followers doing so in more traditional manners such as sanjiao and find it reasonable. On the other hand it makes me annoyed when people say it’s just multiple paths up the same mountain. This complication in both one’s religious life and one’s research of historical and modern traditions long influence is what makes religious such as interesting topic.

Honestly, yeah, I am completely and totally bastardizing everything. Haha. I am well aware of it. But I also attempting to do so in a way involves actual academic study and a more fleshed out understanding of a tradition before going all shopping cart religion on it. I think that what we find when we do any kind in depth study on the philosophical side of most traditions, as opposed to the practical, lived side of things, is that most of traditions have had at least a few people who stumbled or found their way to the idea of nonduality, or something similar to it.

From what I understand (which, again, not a lot) the buddhist concept of emptiness is also compared to the Advaitin idea of nonduality, just, obviously, nontheistic. Can you help me understand Emptiness? I’m at a bit of a loss on it, to be honest.

Part 1

Sorry what is TEC?

The Episcopal Church, specifically The Episcopal Church USA

I like how you worded this as different perspectives and focuses with potential a singular underlying messages rather than the common saying, which I dislike, of they’re different paths up the same mountain.

I mean, I do think they’re paths to the same point, but that particular expression I’m not too big a fan of. Up the same mountain makes it sound, firstly, like a slog, and secondly like the paths themselves are similar. I prefer Vivekananda’s version

“As different streams having their sources in different places all mingle their waters in the sea, so, Oh Lord, the different paths which men take through different tendencies various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee”

I also quite like his story of the frog in the well. That’s not exactly relevant here, but it’s a google story, and I like it a lot. Lol

May I ask how do you handle big and/or cosmological differences? Or do you focus on the advaita one’s? As far as big cosmological issues go, I really don’t handle them. Haha. I just sort of ignore things about gods or heavens and hells, and chalk them up to mostly metaphor, and the ways in which people try to understand the world around them, or the ways in which they try to impart wisdom to those who might not understand another method. I don’t know how literally I believe really anything, but especially issues like cyclical time, or Agni the deva of fire. Given what you’ve said, I’m assuming you probably also don’t take a literal view of the various gods, demons, heavens and hells that are present in a lot of Buddhist thought.

Where do you land on rebirth/reincarnation? Also, what branch of Buddhism do you practice?

One of the biggest reasons I haven’t studied any form of Hinduism is the main Buddhist critiques of it. Non-self/atman, anti-caste, no eternal source, and no creator god.

So, my personal idea of Brahman is less creator deity and more universal constant. If there is truly not-two, then all things are brahman, all things are in common. I don’t see brahman as a distinct, physical god, but as the collection of the entirety of existence. Pantheism, perhaps panentheism depending on the day.

I also, find the three marks of existence quite logical as well as the four noble truths.

From what I’ve read, I also quite like the three marks of existence (though I knew them as the Universal Truths) and the four noble truths. I don’t know as much about Buddhism as I’d like, though, and I need to learn more. It’s honestly just a weird fluke that I ended up with more knowledge of hinduism than of buddhism, considering how much more popular buddhism is in the states. I’ve always enjoyed learning about other traditions, especially ones that are very foreign to my current understanding. I had just come off a kick on Norse Paganism when I started reading about Advaita, and it just… clicked. Never really looked back. I hadn’t done the same with Buddhism because I mistakenly thought I knew what it was all about. Found out later I had very little understanding of Buddhism, and I’ve only just recently started really looking into it.

Though I study it academically I also follow it personally. If I understand correctly your current method or interest is taking advaita as your core but studying traditions around it to gain other perspectives?

Less that one is my core and I’m studying things around it, and more that I am trying to study as many as possible objectively, and attempting to find my own core. As current, Advaita is the closest I have to come to expressing what I have always believed internally, and consequently gives me a language to explain how I feel about the universe, and a framework to help understand things that I currently do not. I’m not dogmatic about it, though, and am willing to grow, adapt and change my views when new information or traditions are presented.

it’s fun that the Buddha ran into some big religious traditions if his time and had debates with them so there is a record of exactly the sort of back and forth you are interested in.

I need to look those up. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing I would like to start reading!

Have you watched Let’s Talk Religion’s videos on Advaita?

I have! They’re quite good. John Green is doing a religions series on Crash Course, and I’m spamming the comments on each episode asking him to do an episode specifically about nonduality. Haha

May I ask what about nondualism interests you? And what about Kashmiri Shaivism carried this interest? What is the difference with Shiva as center? What does that imply for the practice?

So, there’s nothing specific, for me, about having Shiva at center. It’s less about the image that people hold of the godhead, and more just another tradition attempting to explain nonduality, and the nuances of it that make it interesting. I use Advaita as a shorthand to explain what I believe, because, again, its quite close. But ultimately, its nonduality that is most essential, so just about any nondualist tradition is of interest to me. Kashmiri Shaivism and Advaita have a lot of difference… Most of which I don’t understand well enough to explain. Haha.

I actually used to have this understanding as well until I read this book by James Laidlaw: https://archive.org/details/richesrenunciati0000laid His main point, which is a good point to understand for religion in general, is that in Jainism as understood through its texts and Jainism as its lived can be wildly different traditions with little pressure for lay people to renounce. The particular city he did his fieldwork in showed that many Jains were wildly rich though they supported those who renounced. If you only approach it from its texts it appears the only point of the traditions is to renounce. This is was a pretty eye opening moment for me in school that lived religion is the best approach. This comes as a critique of how early Protestant scholars of religion only studied religions based on what their texts said then would label its followers as good or bad based on that. If one follows this method there are few Buddhists in East Asia, when in reality there are millions.

I will check out that book! It can be sort of… Disconcerting, realizing the difference between the religious texts or a philosophical tradition and the actual lived religion of the people. I remember when I made one of my first Hindu friends, and I was so excited to chat about nondualism, cyclical time, and other sort of deep cuts from people like Shankara and Ramakrishna. And they were like “I do pooja, and I don’t really think about it otherwise” And I realized Hindus were much like Christians in that regard. Haha. Probably the same for just about any religion outside of tiny cults.

I guess because of my more Buddhist views I have trouble being interested in more creator centered traditions. I, like you, was brought up Christian and one of the big eye opening moments for me in Buddhism besides emptiness and impermanence was no creator god. In the nondualism you study is Brahman necessarily a creator god or are there forms where they are not?

Plenty of the nondualists/advaitins I’ve spoken with do not really understand Brahman through the lens of a creator god. Brahman, to my understanding, isn’t generally viewed as a creator deity, but more as universal existence itself. The creator deity in Hinduism is (at least, in most branches) is Brahma, not Brahman. The Hindu trimurti is Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. Brahma creates, Vishnu sustains, and Shiva destroys. But Brahma and Brahman are not the same thing, just a similar sounding word. There are two major concepts of Brahman, Saguna and Nirguna. Nirguna Brahman is the formless, atributeless, unexplainable, ineffable divine existence that permeates all. It is the paramatman, the soul from which all souls spring (though, even that kind languages implies a duality. Better to say the soul from which all souls appear to spring). Saguna Brahman is sort of like philosophical training wheels. Saguna Brahman is basically up to the believers choice. You can choose to imagine Saguna Brahman as Vishnu, or Shiva, or your own mother if you’re so inclined. It is simply an aspect of Brahman, the true Nirguna Brahman, that allows you to focus your mind until you are ready to understand the true nature of Brahman as Nirguna Brahman.

I hope I don’t come off as aggressively Buddhist. I also enjoy reading about what your talking about. Really fun to listen to podcasts on all of it and Great Courses talks. Studying at the phd level has somewhat ripped away my non-Buddhist time and care since it’s my job lol.

Not at all! I hope I don’t across as aggressively any-one-thing. Haha. I’d love to learn more about Buddhism, if you wouldn’t mind educating me and pointing me to some places to begin.

When I was more Buddhist-Christian I really did enjoy such nondualist traditions within Abrahamic and potentially South Asian religions as they sort of bridged my way.

IDK if I already asked it but what particularly about nondualism interests you? And outside of that what about those two traditions way above interest you?

I think I’ve already sort of gone into that above, but I’m too lazy to check. Haha. Nondualism gives me a framework to explain what I’ve always sort of known/believed internally. We are not-two. It also helped me explain my universalism within my Christian framework, as I’ve never really believed in hell, and could not jive the concept of a benevolent, loving God and eternal damnation. Infinite punishment for finite crimes and all. It led to me Universal Reconciliation.

Warning: religion, philosophy, nondualism and metaphysics are my trains. I wrote you a thesis before realizing what I had done. You’re not going to hurt my feelings if you don’t read the freaking book I just wrote. Lmao. Sowwy

I’m pretty new to TEC, to be honest. Grew up Baptist, but that wasn’t a good fit for various reasons, and sort of just did my own thing for a long time. Ended up finding the Episcopals when I decided I wanted to try going to church again. Helluva difference, being in a liturgical tradition, and I like it a lot.

Re: Buddhism V advaita:

So, it’s not so much about what one fills that the other lacks as it is about… Perspective? If multiple groups are all saying something similar, but with different focuses, intentions, inflections, verbage, et cetera, I think it’s interesting to examine both, find their commonalities and differences, and try to understand the underlying message. Buddhism speaks of emptiness, Advaita of illusion. While Buddhism tells us there is no self, advaita says there is no self except the self, the singular Brahman. I’ll be honest in that I am really new to Buddhism, and most of my advaita comes from Vivekananda and Ramakrishna and others labeled neoadvaita, but there is a lot of traditionalist thought and teaching in there, too. But I think, ultimately, they’re saying very similar, if not the same, things, and that by allowing yourself to float a bit between them you get to understand them a bit more. Kind of like how if you learn Italian and Spanish and Romanian you might have a much easier time understanding some old Latin texts. **

Re: Kashmiri Shaivism:

If you’re at all interested in nondualism you’ve got to check out Kashmiri Shaivism! Very cool tradition. It’s a nondualism tradition, but with Shiva as the focus instead of Brahman. It’s independent of Advaita, and IIRC significantly older. Like, potentially Indus Valley civilization old. Prevedic old. Though, obvious any living tradition has changed in that amount of time. There are several really good YouTubers that do advaita info (and if you’re anywhere near NC then Swami Sarvapriyananda from the Vedanta Society of NYC is going to be in Raleigh in March, and I’m hopefully going to be there), but there’s less info on Kashmiri Shaivism. There’s the Kauai’s Hindu Monastery also called Himalayan Academy, but I don’t remember if they’re specifically Kashmiri or not, but I do think they’re ultimately nondualist, or qualified nondualists. I’ll look around and find some resources if you’re interested.

And yeah, Jainism is fascinating! Though so strict. I can’t imagine being brought up in that tradition. I have Catholic Guilt by association, and I’m not even Catholic. Lol. I can’t imagine what the idea of that strict an understanding of Karma would do to my psyche! Lmao

And I have actually just recently begun reading about Sikhism again! I love their ideas around universality of religions.

Are you at all familiar with Meister Eckhart? Turns out, there’s a Christian nondualist tradition!

Sufism is another really interesting entry point into Abrahamic nondualism, too. Though it’s a minority viewpoint even within Sufism, a minority trend in Islam, from what I understand. If you’re interested in that Tawhid is a good keyword for search and Let’s Talk Religion has an excellent video (or several) on Islamic nondualists and mysticism

I’m gonna stop writing there, because this is already a wall of text. Sorry!

**

I lied. Bit more on what I was saying about Buddhism and Advaita. I look at religion the same way I look at language. You have language families that share a common ancestor proto language, and we can see that with philosophical thought as well. Hell, it’s often along the same lines. Indo-european languages are often spoken by groups of people that also had similar religious thought. There are deep similarities between Greek and Roman paganism and the Vedic gods, for instance, as well as with Norse paganism.

Above language families you have the more speculative language phylum, and so on it goes. I think that, ultimately, if you trace the root of a word back far enough, you often find it is present in some form in a proto language shared by seemingly disparate languages, and then working forward again you can find all of these cognates in other languages, and how this simple word in proto Germanic, or PIE is now present, but significantly different, in millions of people’s lives.

I apply that same thinking to religion. We see similar concepts, myths, stories crop up in areas that, on the surface, have completely different religious structures. Hinduism and Judaism appear to be completely different, but Hinduism and Zoroastrianism influenced each other to a considerable degree (they even call each other’s gods demons and demons gods. Deva/Deava, Asura/Ahura.). Zoroastrianism in turn influenced the crap out of the region, and that includes ancient yahwism and Judaism. There are parts of Leviticus that are almost identical to Zoroastrian texts. Judaism, and in turn Christianity, were also heavily influenced by Hellenistic Greek traditions (sometimes positively, by adopting things, sometimes negatively by making their rejection of them a staple of their faith). Nothing exists in a vacuum (on earth anyway. Lol), and there’s so much influence on everything that, much like with language, there exists a sort of continuum of belief. Sure, there are definitely still languages, we need that mutual intelligibility to communicate, but from a really broad historical view, they’re all basically connected. Isolates notwithstanding.

Jesus, I am so sorry for how long this comment is.

Hey, thanks!

Sort of a hodgepodge. Hinduism (advaita Vedanta, kashmiri Shaivism mainly), some Buddhism as well, and an Episcopalian. Haha. Mostly I’m a nondualist who really, really likes philosophy. I picked the username years ago when I was just beginning to explore eastern philosophy, and it was a pun/play on the term bi curious.

Congenital Baptistism. Terrible fate. There’s hope for a cure with Crispr, though