OP, ignore a lot of these commenters. Remember that Lemmy is international, and does not reflect actual Americans who are stepping up. You’re asking the Internet, many doom scroll then bitch and then repeat and do nothing else.
Remember that Lemmy is still social media - which means it’s unprotected and anybody can read it. You’re not going to find these conversations openly. Because that’s a huge safety risk.
The community groups already exist. Maybe not in small towns, but every city has something. It won’t be called anything like “self-defense”, which is actually harmful to the core message of creating only peaceful protests.
But being involved in the non-violent aspect will help you start to get in the know. If you’re already in self defense groups (everything from martial arts to your local gun range), bring up your interest in activism.
In other words, you won’t find your answer here. And the real answer is face to face with other like-minded individuals in a secure place.
Organize. Join groups. Unite. Do not Lone Wolf anything in this situation. Your power comes from your biomass moving in one direction. Do not disperse.
Yes
I recommend a first aid class that includes bleed and bone break trauma, and a kit.
Never a waste regardless of circumstances.
Yes, obviously.
Furthermore, duh
That and something to snip the valves off of the tires on their vehicles, wire cutters would probably work great.
You’re going to use some bog standard self defense class against multiple armed, stupid, violent ICE agents?
Yeah, that will end well.
If you’re going to do anything you’d better off going to a protest, finding like minded individuals and then deciding where to go from there.
ICE agents get 8 weeks of training. Don’t undervalue someone with a year of real training.
EDIT: I’m pretty sure most ICE agents are below average intelligence too… so really, we already have an advantage if we did a little training.
Contrary to popular belief: Going to a protest isn’t the only way to show your dislike. Protesters are the front line.
The back line is support. First aid people. Armed citizens acting as guards. Legal observators. Saboteurs. Tech people to amplify the message. All of these are not at a protest, but assembled through online groups and community events.
Granted, you’ll also see them staged at protests too, but you don’t have to go to one.
You need both lines, and there’s a lot of roles out there.
Need classes on insurgency
Better than nothing. Also not self defense. Hit the gym. Get a gun. Go train at a gym BJJ, MMA whatever but do something. Use the hate for fascists to drive training. I’m so tired of seeing protestors get knocked out trying to act tough. Nothing sets the effort back like watching your side get beat repeatedly. We can act high and morally superior but if we reject the basics then it’s all hollow. You need to support all of it with some type of power and power comes from winning at whatever you do. If we’re protesting only because they’re letting us because they haven’t become more violent yet then we’re not actually protesting. The idea isn’t to go out and hurt anyone or instigating. It’s to be ready when they do.
Something may be better than nothing but escalating without hope isn’t better.
It’s a bad idea to attempt force against overwhelming force. You will never win and you may lose a lot
You’re much more likely to get good results by surviving and following through in the courts. Your strength is knowing your rights, filming everything, ensuring it’s clear on video when those rights are validated.
For example, you may not be able to physically prevent an illegal search. But you can film it. You can make it clear that you do don’t consent to a search (while not physically interfering with their illegal activity). You can ask about their warrant. You can even ask for their grounds for suspicion. When they are on video violating that, it’s pretty damning evidence. That won’t help you in the short term, but it will help in the future. If there is due process, you may get any evidence obtained illegally dropped. You can follow through with a civil rights proceeding. It won’t be fast or easy but you’re much more likely to eventually get justice, than any fantasies of violent resistance
Youre optimistic about taking it to court when ice will kidnap you and deport you without ever seeing a lawyer or a judge.
More accurately I’m more pessimistic about direct resistance. Even if you’re kidnapped out of the country, at least you’ve survived and have hope. That law is on your side, so if we ever get back to following laws ….
I’m with you on all that except for the part that you’re reacting. Which is a major issue on the left lately. It’s all reaction to things others are proactively doing. The left needs to do all you said while also adapting that prepper and survival mindset. There are no courts or police or military as we knew it. It’s just us and we need each other to be as ready as possible. That hammer is going to drop on us. Trump or ICE or MAGA will not go away until they inflict much more harm. Every panic in the past shows this. It doesn’t end until an event occurs that is so shocking everybody kind of wakes out of a daze. The problem is we’ve had multiple shocks and they get stronger. This means it isn’t just run of the mill momentary crash out. It’s something else. It’s not going to end
If you aren’t already on it… Its never too late to start but its also very late to be starting. Community defense starts at building community. How many of your neighbors do you know? 1? 10? 100? Do your neighbors identify each other as people or just people that park next to one another every night. Do you share food, like potlucks or beers on the lanai or at the beach?
These are small examples, but the very, very first step is to begin seeing people as humans. Not seeing each other as humans; being trained to not see each other as humans: its what got us here in the first place. 100 people stepping out there front porch to confront ICE immeasurably more effective than one person with a gun showing up.
As far as actual training, take a gun safety course before doing anything else firearms related. You can sign up for one this weekend probably. Guns aren’t something to be feared, they are something to be understood. Even if its not your gun, knowing when a gun’s safety is or isn’t set; its very important. At that point you can decide if its the right way for you to defend yourself.
Please elaborate on this
Well it would be helpful to understand what you mean by self-defense. Some people hear that and think barricades and molotovs. Others think community gardens. The fact is there are many ways to resist authoritarianism.
What does community defense mean to you?
What does community defense mean to you?
Defending you and your comrades, I think
Most of America has no communities at all. It’s a bunch of strangers.
This has deliberately been done to us. The atomization of our society serves no one but the capitalists (who are the masters of ICE).
The solution to this atomization problem is through socialism and liberation of all oppressed people. If the US were a socialist country (like in the alternate history story “Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline” (wiki here)), no one would be stuck inside all day. Seriously!
Sadly, it might not help you. A wrong look in their direction can mean being shot in the face.
It’s getting to the point I’d rather die than be complicit.
And that’s why community defense is important?
Honestly, I misread your post to be self defense.
“Community defense organizing” is in the question
No to self defence. You learning self defence will only provoke a stronger response from the guys who will go up to and beyond killing you, and may call in actual military support if required.
Civil disobedience feels like a better approach. Forming human walls, information networks and rapid support responses slow and mitigate attacks on your community.
Applying pressure to your representatives also can help.
They’re executing people in the street for civil disobedience. A
Civil disobedience feels like a better approach
We really should stop showing up. Stop showing up to work. Stop showing up to buy things. Stop showing up to sign up for the military. Stop reproducing. Quiet quitting en masse.
Many of us generally prefer to sleep inside and have food to eat. A general strike will likely never happen in the US. Being prepared as best as possible for violence is more necessary every day and making friends with like minded folks is one of the best ways to do that. They are bringing the violence to us. We cannot just lie down and take it. Arm up, train and help others do the same.
Yes.
What, exactly, do you think a community of randos is going to do against a heavily-armed extra-legal military operation?
This isn’t a jab or a gotcha, I’m genuinely curious what this idea of community defense would look like.
The Black Panthers had so much success at preventing police violence by simply showing up with guns when the cops came that Reagan made it illegal to open carry in California.
They succeeded because they emphasized education and community.
Being an armed militia willing to die for their cause was secondary.
My understanding is they succeeded partly by being the bigger force. You can do that when the enemy is a small local police force with the weapons of that time. However it’s not the same when it’s a larger militarized federal force that is already claiming “total Immunity”.
If they have the overwhelming force and believe they have no limits, escalating will only escalate their response.
But legally they don’t have “total immunity”. Legally there are limitations. Legally there are civil rights. Pursuing it through the courts is slow and uncertain, but much more likely to succeed
Sabotage, insurgency, guerilla tactics, asymmetric warfare…
Also, mutual aid without reliance on the state
community defense
I think this would help: https://mutualaiddisasterrelief.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Community-Defense.pdf
The only thing I can think of:
What we need is for more people to read the anarchists handbook
There are lots of interesting manuals available on the internet.
It has a bad reputation
Ah I wonder from who
I think people here watch too many movies. Reality is a lot different.
What are you think of community defense organizing?
You say self defense like you’re fighting off a mugger. Your facing government backed thugs not street thugs (they wouldn’t need to cover their faces if they weren’t doing something wrong) physically resisting isn’t going to do you any good. Maybe you make their jobs a little tougher for a little while, but they will go back to work tomorrow and you will spend a few days, maybe weeks in jail or get shipped off somewhere if you survived.
You are out numbered and out matched, self defense classes aren’t going to do you any good, no half measure is going to do anything. It’s entirely up to you if feel the need to resist and/or feel the urge to become a martyr if they come for you, it’s your choice.
If you feel the need to act, your best options are to join an activist group and/or support government leaders that you feel could help. Because in the end you’re either going to be standing in front of God or a judge, you won’t be physically fighting back in any meaningful way.
physically resisting isn’t going to do you any good.
Well at a certain point that may be the only option and human history is mostly examples of us failing to appeal to our better nature. Longer we wait do do things that physically stop these thugs from doing what they are doing, the longer this goes on for.
Fear is what’s going to make them stop acting like thugs, they don’t fear the consequences of their actions. The person giving them orders don’t fear the consequences. Learning hip toss or judo chop isn’t going to stop a group of fearless thugs.
But you’re right. If reason is lost and the people that are sworn to protect do nothing then logically that is the next step, it’s sort of written into the Constitution and Amendments because our founders dealt with this sort of thing and the abuse of power.
