Stop depending on sat nav for directions and just use it for traffic updates. As you drive look for interesting things to remember (an old brick building, a new playground, a fuel station,etc). Commit those to memory.
Personal skill issue. Nothing to do with ai
100%. Around 2018 met a couple that had lived in a place for a year and didn’t know directions because of “too many curved streets.” Literally couldn’t get more than a few blocks without Google.
Did these maps also show live traffic predictions?
Nah the time of day and the red brake lights did that. Part of driving was being stuck on the freeway standing outside your car chatting with strangers.
If you’re driving short to medium distances there’s only so many feasible routes so you often just go the same way regardless. You usually also knew of it was rush hour or something to avoid certain roads at certain times of day.
For road closures, they usually post detours. Only difference is if there’s an emergency closure for an immediate accident.
If you drive to the same place 5 times with satnav and don’t learn the route, I’d say that’s on you mate.
With satnav, you can multitask more, just blindly follow the directions and get there while you’re having a debate with the wife over where to go for dinner tomorrow night and who’s going to watch the kids while the plumber fixes the bathroom sink…
Without satnav, you actually had to pay attention to the landmarks, street signs, etc. to get to your destination with your A-Z, your brain was forced to be engaged with navigation or you’d never get there.
There’s no reason you can’t still keep your brain engaged with navigation whilst driving to a new / unfamiliar place, other than your choice to not do it. Your submission to social pressure to engage in other things. Your acceptance of ridiculously complex backroads routes that you’d never attempt with an A-Z.
Here Up Over in Yankland, I use the GPS phone map navigation apps for several reasons: they give traffic updates near realtime and can route me around backups that develop after I set out, while I can generally get close to a new place, the final turns can be tricky especially downtown with the one-ways so I’ll let the damn thing prattle on through the 98% of the route that I could do in my sleep just to get that final endpoint guidance because it’s too fiddly to engage it while already en-route - sometimes I’ll turn the volume far down until we get close, but that defeats the traffic jam detection. Sometimes the app will alert for police activity ahead, rarely - but sometimes - it’s an actual early warning for a speed trap. And, those “avoid highways” back country routes, the ones with 47 turns where you could get there using the interstate with 5 turns… yeah, those are fun - and I do usually have the route memorized after about 5 runs through the same route, but they’re also highly subject to reroute to avoid traffic congestion so you might drive it 10 times and never use the same routing even 3 times.
Yeah, I feel bad for all these people who choose to let themselves atrophy, whether that’s physically or mentally. GPS doesn’t atrophy me, it frees me to do other things.
If AI is making you dumb, it has just exposed a flaw in your motivation and desire. People should work on fixing that flaw, both personally and systemically. We should not try to continue the world where we are motivated by desperation and fear.
You can beat someone to get them to do something that will benefit them. If you take away that beating they might stop, but that doesn’t mean you should keep beating them.
Even when I know the route like the back of my hand I still use GPS. Why? Because if there’s any variation in the route, such as due to construction or a parade, I’m no longer 100% sure of how to get where I’m going, and a driver that doesn’t know where they’re going in is one of the more dangerous things on the road IMO.
Construction is a factor, but outside of my relatively short commute, I always use GPS, even when I know how to get there, to minimize traffic.
Like sure, I can get there without it, but if I use it I can be pretty sure I’m on the route that’s fastest *right now".
I use my GPS every day on my way home from work. I know the route very well, but 10% of the time, the highway gets a crazy amount of traffic; and you can’t tell it’s backed up until you get on it. My GPS knows though. It saves me 30 extra minutes every time it happens and I just take the back roads.
Whether being unsure of where you going translates to being danger is entirely a matter of attitude. If you blast over lanes when you spot an exit late, then that’s dangerous, but you can also just… not do that, and accept that you’ll go the wrong way sometimes.
In my case, it’s dangerous because I’m suddenly distracted from the road by trying to figure out where I’m supposed to be going in the immediate moment. I’m on the spectrum, and on-the-fly changes of plan spike my anxiety - nothing I can do about that except work around it. That isn’t a personal fault, I’m keeping myself and other people safer on the road.
So I’m gonna keep using the GPS even when I know where I’m going, that way if I realise I’m gonna miss my exit I don’t panic and instead can keep going with the confidence that the GPS will re-route me and I’ll have time to be in the correct lane for the next one.
That’s fair enough, if you know it affects you that way and you have a mitigation that’s very sensible. I’d just emphasise that it doesn’t affect everyone the same way, but you probably realise that
but you probably realise that
I do, and I appreciate your recognition of that. Nowhere in my post did I say this is everyone’s experience, but it is mine, and a lot of people here seem to have a problem with it.
But it’s not my way.
you can also just… not do that, and accept that you’ll go the wrong way sometimes.
You can do that, I do that, but there are an awful lot of drivers who seem incapable. My home commute has 2 lanes exiting the expressway and I need the left (inner) one to make my turn at the base. It seems like more than one trip in ten I’ll have somebody driving in the right lane realize they’re about to be forced off the expressway at the last second (after 2 miles of exit only warning signs, dashed stripes on the road informing them of forced exit in less than 1/2 mile, etc.) and they’ll swerve without looking across my lane, often across the painted exit median covered in debris because only a few idiots ever drive on that part of the tarmac.
Being not 100% certain of something isn’t dangerous if you have critical thinking skills. It sounds like you fear what you can’t plan for, which is one of the dangerous side effects of people relying on technology like this. Unless you’re travelling in an area that you don’t frequent, how could you be surprised by construction or a parade, both of which are things that are announced weeks ahead of time?
construction […] announced weeks ahead of time
Lol. Try to remember you’re on a global website.
I’m autistic and do not do well with a change of plans, especially under time pressure, but thanks so much for assuming that it’s because I lack “critical thinking skills” (which is not what that is, by the way) and taking the chance to insult me for working around my limitations.
When you grow up, you’ll learn that people are all different, and that supplementing one’s abilities with the tools available is not a weakness. I’m going to keep using the GPS even when I know where I’m going, not because I’m “overreliant on technology” or “afraid of things I haven’t planned for”, but because I’d like to keep myself and other people safe. I can’t help but feel that if everyone took this sort of attitude, we’d have far fewer collisions.
I’m so tired of this line.of thinking. I’m autistic too (actually, from what I can tell, it seem like almost everybody on Lemmy is), that’s not a valid excuse for refusing to learn something new, or push yourself out of a comfort zone. Keep using GPS or don’t, I don’t care, you’re a stranger on the internet. But claiming that it helps keep people safe is just ridiculous. People are all different, and the way you use the GPS is absolutely not the way that other people do.
You can learn to do better with change of plans, btw. It’s a skill. Nobody is born with that
I think you should re-read my post, because nowhere in there did I say everyone should use GPS or it’s dangerous to drive. I just said that’s how and why I use it. When I do, it does keep people safe, because I’m not putting myself in a situation where I’m likely to be distracted by trying to figure out my route while I’m behind the wheel. Distracted driving is dangerous driving, period dot and end of story, regardless of neurodiversity.
You seem to recognise that people are in fact all different, so I’m very confused as to why you’d then come at me to tell me I’m handling my disability wrong when you don’t know me or the spread of symptoms I’m living with. I can’t unlearn my brain structure, but I can mitigate it, so I do that. I’m not the idiot, here.
I’m literally not even talking about you. I’m talking about people generally. I’m talking about systems. We’re on a forum, not having a personal 1:1 conversation
This you?
You know what you can learn? To own up to your mistakes, instead of pretending like you were saying something else the whole time.
Another coping mechanism I’ve learned is to walk away from people who are more interested in their own narratives than reality. If you respond, I won’t see it.
That was me, twice now, trying to emphasize that I’m an not talking about you personally. Hence the emphasis on the word “you”.
There’s a lot of roadworks around me that I never know about until I hit them. Are you monitoring websites for that or what? I’m sure a lot of the info is available somewhere but I think it’s reasonable to realise that a lot of people aren’t going to get it - especially when a satnav can automatically use that information.
Being not 100% certain of something isn’t dangerous if you have critical thinking skills.
Critical thinking requires not being 100% confident and seeking confirmation to establish “knowns” so educated guesses are more educated than guess.
Broadly speaking people following memorized or planned routes had some clearly dangerous stuff.
Like “I’m nowhere near the correct lane but that’s the exit I know to take so I’m going to get over there no matter what”. Sure I still see it happen, but people that feel good about the backup plan feel better that it’ll get them on track in a reasonably ok way. Yes, presumably the next exit you can turn around, but in some places that could be quite a distance and the gps is likely to sort out a less punishing route.
On the unusual circumstances, practically speaking that’s usually an accident or traffic. However plenty of times you have construction not announced in any way you are likely to know. If they are going to work on a major interstate then if possible they put up a big sign. If they are emergency repairing a pothole, you won’t have warning. Here the most recent parade was due to a celebration about three days after something happened to celebrate. Very little warning and I only knew if that because of listening to local news.
If you know your exit is coming up from memory why would you not already be in the correct lane? You’ve learned the route, you should be able to recognize when an exit is getting close. My concern with a gps is that it’s easy to get caught up in keeping track of traffic immediately around you, then get surprised when the gps says to take the next exit in half a mile because you didn’t know the road well enough to recognize the buildings/markers that it’s getting close, and you have gps so why bother looking at the actual signs.
If taking the next exit is an issue because it might take a while, then how does a gps figure out a shorter route? It’s literally the next exit, there is nowhere else to go before that exit, and if it’s taken a while to get there then the main road is almost certainly the fastest route back.
If I’m going somewhere for the first time in a while I will often check the gps before I leave to see if there’s construction or road closures because it can be helpful, but once I’ve confirmed there isn’t I close the gps and run off memory. One time a couple months ago I was driving down the freeway in the boonies and construction closed down a chunk of it. I started following the detour and got out of cell service range. Eventually there was another detour sign that directed my back toward the main road after the construction area. It was very helpful and also the norm when there is construction or events taking place, at least in my neck of the US.
I think gps can be a useful tool in the short term or to learn routes, but when I start talking about driving westbound on one of the largest freeways in the metro or point “that way” and my friend gives me a dull look because all they know is “turn left here” and “exit here,” it’s become a crutch. But I almost definitely put a higher value on knowing where I am and how to navigate than the average person does, and I don’t expect that to change, so it’s something I’ve come to (begrudgingly) accept.
I only knew if that because of listening to local news
Yes, that is how you learn about these things.
Wtf, I feel like you’re just describing people that don’t know how to exist without the internet. If you miss your exit, then you simply get off at the next one and double back.
What about the danger of someone looking at their satnav telling them to “exit now” and then they cross five lanes of traffic almost causing an accident to get to the “right” exit that satnav told them to take? The problems you’re describing have nothing to do with satnav or no satnav, you’re describing problems with people who lack critical thinking skills, which is dangerous regardless of how they’re navigating.
I use it because it gives me the speed cameras.
The trick is zooming out to get an overview. In old days we looked at a map and had and overview- I’ll go north a bit and then turn west at a junction or landmark. Now it’s all zoomed in- you go straight for 3 miles and turn right with no idea where you are relative to other things.
It’s funny how different people process information differently. My wife just got done telling me how she hates long screens full of text, but… when she’s using the phone navigation app (in a holder on the dash) she “has to see the turn by turn text directions” - can’t work with the map view. I’m the opposite, map view makes it simple for me, turn by turn is almost useless for me.
I’m a visual person, turn by turn is also useless for me. Doesn’t help that by the time I can read the street name on the sign it’s too late to get into the turn lane.
Also having everything rotating around the car as you turn makes it very hard to know what you’re doing.
Man I turn that shit off. Makes me dizzy. N is up.
I do the same thing in video games! I HATE when the minimap rotates all over the place - North is up, damnit!
Spoken with true Northern Hemisphere privilege.
And in Tasmania do they hold the maps South Up? Sigma Octantis is nowhere near as bright as Polaris…
My original comment was a joke. But you can’t see Polaris at all from Tasmania, so even if there’s no good South pole star, it’s better than one blocked by the Earth.
Mine is a joke too, but a serious question: are there significant numbers of people who draw and hold their maps “South Up”?
Are they just afraid of getting cold feet?
Well it’s just normal for me. The UI should allow fixed orientation for what ever direction you want. The rotation is the problem. Nobody would ever rotate a map like that.
People absolutely rotate maps like that.
After several trips, I start remembering the route. I still use navigation for alternate routes because of unpredictable traffic, but if I drive a route using navigation enough times, I eventually memorize it.
Also, satnav is deterministic, it will get you to your destination accurately. AI is non-deterministic, it will guess the best way to your destination.
I think this is a neurodiversity thing. Different people find different things challenging, and I’ve noticed within my circle of friends that navigational ability varies wildly. I would find it unlikely that I’d have trouble finding somewhere I went using satnav once, but I could also see someone else using it several times without it teaching them the route.
I imagine that in the same way some people will use AI and have it be a learning experience, while for others it will be a crutch.
It might be more of a problem for people who grow up with it though; less of them may find the need to develop the underlying skills.
Nav still requires you think critically to interpret the instructions in the context of the real world signs/roads/spatial setting. When you reach your destination you’re either where you wanted to be or not. The fact checking is inherent to the result.
AI chats require an individual to be critical of their own volition. So most don’t stress the brain when using it and plasticity never occurs, all the while they’re absorbing near truths, guesses, and falsehoods.
Navigation can definitely do the same thing. My wife uses Google maps everywhere she goes, even to get to her own job or friends’ houses.
One time her phone died on her way back home from somewhere she doesn’t go very often, and she was crying by the time she found her way home. At the time we lived in a big city surrounded by a ring of highways - all she needed to do was drive toward the skyline and she’d hit that ring, but since she never thinks about what direction she’s going or where she needs to turn, the thought of making those decisions herself never entered her brain. Instead she stopped at a gas station, charged her phone for 30 minutes, and used navigation to get back.
I’ve never been much into using apps like that, but now I specifically avoid them, so that I can keep my own ability to think about those kinds of things.
Yeah I’m not suggesting using a maps app teaches route/wayfinding at all.
When it says to turn you still need to recognize the street direction, signs, signals, etc to decide you CAN turn that way and you also know when you’ve reached your destination because you’re where you need to be. It’s not probability and it can’t lie to you without you knowing. You still have to be a competent driver.
AI chats don’t have any indication of reasoning nor built-in fact checking. If you just want an answer you are not functionally obliged to check it, there is no built in safeguard.
In the same way navigation apps offload the skill of wayfinding, AI apps offload the skill of critical thinking.
Ah, yeah, that’s fair. They degenerate some of your decision making, but not to the point where you can’t drive at all. I think it’s still probability-based in the end, but not to the same extent as AI, like how it’s not going to tell you to drive onto a park trail the way AI might if it were in charge.
How many phone numbers can you remember?
You used to be required to memorize a bare minimum number of phone numbers to survive. Now, you’re lucky if people know their spouse’s and their own.
Cognitive offloading results in an atrophy of the skill and retention. There is a similar phenomena with people who watch 1000 tutorial videos but never implement anything or do it themselves. This is not “deep learning”, and its entertainment masquerading as productivity.
GPS is undeniably the same, and it’s easily observable between generations. AI LLM search queries are already resulting in a disturbing amount of people accepting what is presented non-critically. These people are sadly atrophying whatever critical analysis skills they had to vet information and links.
Can someone please explain what this is saying? What is an A-Z?
It’s a reference to British road maps. They were ubiquitous before satnav became commonplace - everyone with a car had at least one copy stuffed in their glovebox.
A certain British road map, for London to be precise.
They cover most major towns and cities in the UK.
I think point by point directions. Like MapQuest.
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Is Satnav an Aussie term? I only know it from Bluey.
And I use GPS (what we Americans call it, even though that’s technically incorrect) for routes I’m well familiar with, mostly because of either traffic awareness or finding a new scenic route.
What it doesn’t know is the driving habits of others.
I don’t usually drive into work anymore, but my job is in Cambridge MA. For those not familiar with the area, there are two ways in from points south on the highways…tunnel, or pike.
My decision of which way to go comes down to how much traffic I expect at the exit.
If I go Pike, I have to deal with a shitty lane shift at the offramp that nobody executes properly and I always end up nearly getting fender-checked every time.
If I go tunnel, it’s like…three consecutive exits that have to be taken. Like you get off the exit, then a sub-exit, then another sub-exit. Between exits one and two you have to get over a lane…except that lane is always backed up past where the first exit merges with it. So you have to be an asshole and speed past all of them and stop somewhere in the middle when you see a good enough gap…or you have to stop at the exit and get in the middle of the line. Either way you have to be a huge asshole to get where you need to go.
We use sat nav in the uk too.
After that many times you don’t remember?
I always check the route first because sat navs are stupid. So yeah, I remember the route after a while.
I use sat nav to places I know how to get to all the time because google/apple know what roads are closed or have an accident, and I don’t.
I used to get stressed out a lot trying to follow directions. Sometimes it was bad directions. Sometimes its just being unfamiliar to the area.
I don’t get lost anymore and I don’t stress about navigation anymore. I can develop mental maps faster and learn routes quickly. I can avoid traffic jams and I’m never late.
If you take the same route five times and you don’t learn it, it’s because you’re not paying attention or have difficulty with that. Satnav isn’t AI, it’s a useful tool- a map in real time.
It’s not just a map in real time. Depending upon which mapping service you’re using, it’s also advertising. Do you think the local businesses it chooses to show you near you are accidental?
Wow, I must be stupid for using GPS to navigate
No, but you are actively choosing to not use a part of your brain
It’s fascinating how you’ve constructed an entire argument around nothing I ever said
I asked you a question and you implied that I was calling you stupid. There has been no argument
