

I don’t agree that voting prevents things from getting worse…You are literally saying that if we vote for the right people in an informed way that things will not get bad.
But you recognize that’s not what I said, right? I said if you don’t vote, things will get worse. P->Q doesn’t imply ~P->~Q. Classic fallacy of the inverse.
People don’t vote for Democrats because Democrats have terrible policies and terrible behaviors. It’s not that Democrats have terrible policies because people don’t vote. The two party system is just a PR show by the ultra wealthy and that’s why people don’t vote at all. It’s not the case that the two party system is just a PR show by the ultra wealthy because people don’t vote.
But it’s clearly both. It’s a vicious cycle. The data shows that the boomer generation still votes more than any other generation, and as a result, they always get their way. 4 boomer presidents in a row, topped off with Biden from the Silent generation! Yes, the boomers currently hold more wealth than the rest, and yes there is a correlation between being wealthy and being able to cast a vote that matters, but if non-boomers showed up at the same rates as boomers 10-20 years ago, we would be in a much better situation right now. So far, the ones who vote are having their wealth protected.
Now your task is to actually work through your social indoctrination to come to your conclusions based on reality instead of instilled beliefs.
Hey man, don’t sink to that level, please. I’m trying to have a respectful, constructive conversation. Whether intentionally or not, you’ve repeatedly misinterpreted my position.
For ex.
This is the best you can imagine for democracy?
I never said that, you’re arguing against a straw man.
Consider the extent to which you’re upset with reality. The US is not uniquely flawed. Find me a time in human history where none of the crimes against humanity you mention were being committed. But chart crimes over time and I assure you we’re trending better as a species.
And I know you’re capable of seeing that, because in spite of the crimes against humanity committed by the USSR and China, you’re able to see all the good they did too.
They wrote about it explicitly
I’m very interested in any sources you have for this. I would love to have those in my back pocket for future discussions.
not because we voted for the right set of presidents or senators but because we deposed all of those leaders and took control, cratos, back into the hands of the people, the demos
But you see why that argument can always be made to justify throwing out an imperfect system, right? It’s easy to start from scratch, but it’s also the most costly (in terms of lives). It’s much harder to work diligently to make positive, gradual change over time, but historically, we’re doing that. Sure, we can go the overthrow-the-government route, but there’s no guarantee that what replaces it will adequately serve the people. So we’ll overthrow that one too? How many times should that loop happen? As many as it takes? As many lives as it takes?
And what if, when you try to take a stand against the state, the government quashes the attempt using violence, and then punishes anyone who ever so much as mentions the incident going forward? I assume you have examples of that happening in the US. Are you aware of any famous cases of that in China? I wouldn’t presume that this is “the best you can imagine for a democracy”, though.
Again, I’m not here to say the US is any better ethically than China. I’m not going to take the bait on whether china is a democracy, or whether they even claim to be one. But we have to be fair: they’re both guilty of a huge number of crimes against humanity, they’ve both gradually improved the livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people, and both of them are underserving their minorities and younger generations right now in favor of late stage capitalism. But I would feel more confident about being able to affect meaningful change both in policy and party in the US than in China today. Though I ernestly hope that one day the Chinese are able to affect similar change there too.


Any others?