Nice strawman equating nonduality with flat earth and other materialistic religions. Top critical thinking, very science and logic.
If you are so sure of your stance, prove to me that matter exists outside consciousness. And good goddess, at least try to do better than pointing at an extracted brain will you? Nonduality has been around for thousands of years and it’s yet to be debunked despite there being a very clear criteria for it.
I answered your strawman with something equally dishonest. I’m not interested in getting into a debate with someone who genuinely believes matter does not exist outside of consciousness and fully believes in idealism, rejecting materialism. There’s absolutely no evidence for ideas being primary over matter, and moreover all it does is open up the way for absurdities and fantasy to exist as equals to hard science. Materialism helps us genuinely understand and interpret the world, each successive year affirming its utility as science expands and we understand more and more. Idealism is a willing rejection of understanding to entertain the idea of fantasy.
Can’t do it huh? For all your talk of science, you sure are ready to take the belief in materialism for granted. Just another belief you demand others have, demand others have the same thoughts as you. The road towards fascism is short indeed.
You reject materialism, then ask for a materialist (science is materialist, it is the measuring and understanding of mater) proof of materialism. Nonsense.
Nah, not going to waste my time entertaining justifications for belief in the unprovable. I already told you, I’m not here to debate like a Reddit atheist, I just wanted to address your absurd strawman in the beginning. Thoughts are products of the brain, not of some idealist “soul” or other analogue. Matter is objective, measurable, and knowable, through scientific analysis and repeated testing. It isn’t subjective.
No, lol. The ideas of people like Kastrup and Hoffman rely on consciousness being distinct from matter, and not a product of matter. Brainwaves are measurable, as biology advances we understand the electrical signals and chemicals forming perception. Further, matter is measurable and consistent, many humans can measure the same rock’s mass in isolation from each other and get the same result without knowing the mass or the results beforehand.
What you’re doing is deliberately holding onto idealism as the basis for justifying what you personally wish to be true. Idealism always returns, in some fashion, to religion, as explanation. It’s a further abstraction from science and replicatable results in favor of subjectivism and vibes.
You’re having a bit of a meltdown now because you can’t actually argue against science. You have a hypothesis, and reject anything going against that on the basis of your hypothesis resting on the immeasurable and immaterial.
The ideas of people like Kastrup and Hoffman rely on consciousness being distinct from matter, and not a product of matter.
Yes. Good. You got it. Now definitively prove that consciousness arises from matter and not the other way around. No, brainwave scans exist in consciousness. Everything you say exists in consciousness. Prove to yourself that ANYTHING exists outside your consciousness, prior to thought (as thought is only a reflection of what is, like an image in a mirror but it’s not the thing itself).
Else, you are just insisting that your beliefs are the correct ones without proof. All I need to prove consciousness is be. You’re the one insisting on extra steps. You’re just taking materialism as a fact because that’s what you’re used to doing. You put the block of materialism at the bottom and use the blocks you put on it to try to prove it. This is called circular reasoning.
This is circular reasoning on your part, equivalent to positing that I’m not real simply because you are not me. Consciousness is a material, measurable process, that increasingly is better understood the more science advances. It isn’t that I require no proof, it’s that materialism is the best method for understanding, and the more science advances, the more it affirms the materialist understanding. You flip this on its head, affirming that even if materialism is the better method for understanding the world and is increasingly affirmed while idealism remains stagnant and increasingly disaffirmed, you prefer it to be true so you hold to it.
Again, prove it. It is YOUR system of thought which requires that every claim must be backed with objective proof. Where is the objective proof of matter? All the rest you’re saying hingest upon that being a fact. But if you can’t prove it as a fact, all you have is an unverified belief that you insist everyone else should have. Which, again, makes you exactly the same as any other oppressor. In your own system of thought. And before you parade some scientists in front of me, ask yourself if you can know that they know what they are talking about, or do you just believe them because they share the same core belief system as you?
Nice strawman equating nonduality with flat earth and other materialistic religions. Top critical thinking, very science and logic.
If you are so sure of your stance, prove to me that matter exists outside consciousness. And good goddess, at least try to do better than pointing at an extracted brain will you? Nonduality has been around for thousands of years and it’s yet to be debunked despite there being a very clear criteria for it.
I answered your strawman with something equally dishonest. I’m not interested in getting into a debate with someone who genuinely believes matter does not exist outside of consciousness and fully believes in idealism, rejecting materialism. There’s absolutely no evidence for ideas being primary over matter, and moreover all it does is open up the way for absurdities and fantasy to exist as equals to hard science. Materialism helps us genuinely understand and interpret the world, each successive year affirming its utility as science expands and we understand more and more. Idealism is a willing rejection of understanding to entertain the idea of fantasy.
Can’t do it huh? For all your talk of science, you sure are ready to take the belief in materialism for granted. Just another belief you demand others have, demand others have the same thoughts as you. The road towards fascism is short indeed.
Unless you can provide scientific proof, I have no reason to subscribe your belief system and neither does anyone else. Go read https://www.bernardokastrup.com/ or https://bradleyhook.com/donald-hoffmans-concepts-simplified-understanding-reality-and-perception/, debunk them and you probably have grounds for your ideology. Else, it’s just another house of cards built on a foundation of fiction.
Friend, with all respect, only one in this conversation is intent on pushing their perspective.
You reject materialism, then ask for a materialist (science is materialist, it is the measuring and understanding of mater) proof of materialism. Nonsense.
Oh you were SO CLOSE to getting it.
Why can’t materialists prove it though? By all their own rules, they should.
Nothing exists.
Nah, not going to waste my time entertaining justifications for belief in the unprovable. I already told you, I’m not here to debate like a Reddit atheist, I just wanted to address your absurd strawman in the beginning. Thoughts are products of the brain, not of some idealist “soul” or other analogue. Matter is objective, measurable, and knowable, through scientific analysis and repeated testing. It isn’t subjective.
Removed by mod
No, lol. The ideas of people like Kastrup and Hoffman rely on consciousness being distinct from matter, and not a product of matter. Brainwaves are measurable, as biology advances we understand the electrical signals and chemicals forming perception. Further, matter is measurable and consistent, many humans can measure the same rock’s mass in isolation from each other and get the same result without knowing the mass or the results beforehand.
What you’re doing is deliberately holding onto idealism as the basis for justifying what you personally wish to be true. Idealism always returns, in some fashion, to religion, as explanation. It’s a further abstraction from science and replicatable results in favor of subjectivism and vibes.
You’re having a bit of a meltdown now because you can’t actually argue against science. You have a hypothesis, and reject anything going against that on the basis of your hypothesis resting on the immeasurable and immaterial.
Yes. Good. You got it. Now definitively prove that consciousness arises from matter and not the other way around. No, brainwave scans exist in consciousness. Everything you say exists in consciousness. Prove to yourself that ANYTHING exists outside your consciousness, prior to thought (as thought is only a reflection of what is, like an image in a mirror but it’s not the thing itself).
Else, you are just insisting that your beliefs are the correct ones without proof. All I need to prove consciousness is be. You’re the one insisting on extra steps. You’re just taking materialism as a fact because that’s what you’re used to doing. You put the block of materialism at the bottom and use the blocks you put on it to try to prove it. This is called circular reasoning.
This is circular reasoning on your part, equivalent to positing that I’m not real simply because you are not me. Consciousness is a material, measurable process, that increasingly is better understood the more science advances. It isn’t that I require no proof, it’s that materialism is the best method for understanding, and the more science advances, the more it affirms the materialist understanding. You flip this on its head, affirming that even if materialism is the better method for understanding the world and is increasingly affirmed while idealism remains stagnant and increasingly disaffirmed, you prefer it to be true so you hold to it.
Again, prove it. It is YOUR system of thought which requires that every claim must be backed with objective proof. Where is the objective proof of matter? All the rest you’re saying hingest upon that being a fact. But if you can’t prove it as a fact, all you have is an unverified belief that you insist everyone else should have. Which, again, makes you exactly the same as any other oppressor. In your own system of thought. And before you parade some scientists in front of me, ask yourself if you can know that they know what they are talking about, or do you just believe them because they share the same core belief system as you?