You don’t need to remind me what the discussion was about. It was not only about getting a job without a degree, but also about the fact that you have to pay for that degree, as per the title of the post.
The next paragraph can be understood very emotionally. I mean this literally, I do not have bad feelings towards you.
You as an employer do not represent the job market, nor does me being one. Not even in our respective fields. This is irrelevant information and likely told to make yourself look more qualified than you are, which is why I’m bitching about it.
I didn’t even read your first paragraph completely; that’s how irrelevant I find this to be. I don’t need to know your field, or what the hell you do within that field.
If you had a background in this area, like analytics, it would be a different situation, but that’s not what you told me. Your statement, “I hire anybody, as long as they’re qualified,” doesn’t change the job market.
What I have typed here is completely without relevance to the discussion, such as was your attempt to highlight a supposed competency on this topic.
If your credentials are so important to you: Why don’t you talk about being a student, maybe even a lecturer, yourself?
That’s at least midly relevant, still pretentious though.
Slidin my toe back off the battleground:
I don’t know how it works in the us…
Since you live in spain, yeah, that is exactly what I said. Could I maybe dm you about spain? I feel we have certain commonalities and I have contemplated moving there and would like to ask about it.
Regarding uni, yes that is what I meant, badly phrased. I am also talking specifically about the entirety of the EU, since you are free to move and go to any university within it (for now). So it doesn’t really matter that you can’t go study as freely in spain as in germany, you can just go study in germany. Arguments could be made about accessibility, but you can still just go ahead and do that, and it’s not even terribly expensive.
Yes, lectures can be very good. Attendance, more often than not, does not mean that you need to stay til the end, since you get checked at the start of the lecture.
Now, wether we agree or not. On a basis yes. You previously said that for the vast majority of jobs you need a degree. Now you were saying for about half you need a certificate. Certificate ≠ degree. A technical certificate is a type of degree, but a certificate not so necessarily. That is besides the fact that by degree, the general public means a bachelor’s degree and up. Those are two very different documents, and you can get a certificate, such which an electrician requires, in inexpensive ways, even illegally. You don’t necessarily have that choice as a law student.
I do not agree that a simple certificate creates the situation OP is trying to stay out of, which is to pay for education.
I do not agree that the number of jobs requiring a diploma, based on the job market and the skill level of a person, is the majority.
If you feel the same way, then I feel you contradict yourself linguistically, but yes we would agree.
I didn’t mean one percent literally, just a small minority. Using exact numbers figuratively is misleading, so I edited my comment shortly before your answer — probably too late. But hey, that’s the average effort of a post online, amirite?
The real number of people in regulated professions is 22% of the EU workforce. Now consider, that people like electricians are counted here, not just people with a degree. If we were to take those out, that would be even less.
Take out the rest too because of the absolute irrelevance, since in the EU education is so damn cheap, but that’s a different point altogether.
About the privatization of education:
If you have to pay 10k strong monies a year to get a workable diploma, then lock every job behind a degree, that is privatization of job opportunities. This is an ongoing issue in the USA, land of the indebted.
On the first part, do not worry; I understand the perspective. I just meant to show how a degree may not be as relevant as other things with my personal experience.
If you want information regarding Spain, feel free to text me. I’m new in Lemmy and never had private messages, but I guess I should get a notification and figure it out.
We clearly misunderstood each other, I did not mean to say in the majority of jobs you need a degree. I was initially just pointing out there is a significant amount of careers in which a degree is in fact required. We do indeed agree on all points as far as I can see.
Now, regarding this supposed privatisation of job opportunities. I am very much aware of the problems with student debt in the US. It is something extremely sad. What is unclear to me is why would this be a privatisation?
I’d rather imagine this leads to further division in social classes i.e. rich people who can afford degrees can access more “palatable” jobs. But I say this without really knowing much of how jobs work now in the US.
I’d imagine this would lead to only a small percentage of the US population having a degree, but as far as I can see over 50% of US population has one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment)
As such I can imagine in the US as well the degree would be treated as something cheap and common.
I’d imagine this would lead to many jobs in many sectors favouring people with a degree over people who do not have one. As such I can imagine that paying for education in the US could probably lead to better job opportunities. This would be regardless the fact that a degree is required for a certain job or not. It is unclear to me whether people who had to take debt for a degree and get an unspecialised job are able to pay back the debt.
Now, it is a bit sad to talk about degrees and education only under the aspect of job seeking. A degree is a wonderful way to learn things and improve ones thinking skills. Free education is amazing because of this: we all benefit from everyone around being more informed and able to improve things. Widespread education does significantly improve the lives of everyone in a country, regardless of the fact that what one studies is actually useful for a job or not.
When you have to pay for education like it is a luxury, education and opportunities become commodities accessible mostly to the wealthy, which is a form of privatization. If you want onboard, you have to sign your life away in a loan. If you get one.
Since a job is locked behind a degree, bam, you got privatization by gating. It’s technically not the job opportunities themselves being privatized, but the effect is pretty similar.
I absolutely agree on the part that a degree is wonderful in every regard. I would like to study mathematics one day, not because I want to work in that field necessarily, but because I adore the field. It’s like my mind is made for it. Not in an arrogant genius way, more like in an endorphin way. As a kid I always closed my eyes and recreated my environment with basic shapes, using them sort of like voxels, not because of some compulsion, but because it was fun.
But I don’t plan on stopping there. For me, I don’t see why I couldn’t just keep studying till the end of my days. I am sadly not healthy enough for that right now though. Hopefully I get well enough to follow that dream. Everything else is already in place.
I think one thing that often does not get said out loud is that you don’t just learn what is on the agenda, but you also learn to socialize. Like you become a tolerable and tolerating person through such processes and I think it should be talked about way more on the front of being informed from education.
You don’t need to remind me what the discussion was about. It was not only about getting a job without a degree, but also about the fact that you have to pay for that degree, as per the title of the post.
The next paragraph can be understood very emotionally. I mean this literally, I do not have bad feelings towards you.
You as an employer do not represent the job market, nor does me being one. Not even in our respective fields. This is irrelevant information and likely told to make yourself look more qualified than you are, which is why I’m bitching about it.
I didn’t even read your first paragraph completely; that’s how irrelevant I find this to be. I don’t need to know your field, or what the hell you do within that field.
If you had a background in this area, like analytics, it would be a different situation, but that’s not what you told me. Your statement, “I hire anybody, as long as they’re qualified,” doesn’t change the job market.
What I have typed here is completely without relevance to the discussion, such as was your attempt to highlight a supposed competency on this topic.
If your credentials are so important to you: Why don’t you talk about being a student, maybe even a lecturer, yourself?
That’s at least midly relevant, still pretentious though.
Slidin my toe back off the battleground:
Since you live in spain, yeah, that is exactly what I said. Could I maybe dm you about spain? I feel we have certain commonalities and I have contemplated moving there and would like to ask about it.
Regarding uni, yes that is what I meant, badly phrased. I am also talking specifically about the entirety of the EU, since you are free to move and go to any university within it (for now). So it doesn’t really matter that you can’t go study as freely in spain as in germany, you can just go study in germany. Arguments could be made about accessibility, but you can still just go ahead and do that, and it’s not even terribly expensive. Yes, lectures can be very good. Attendance, more often than not, does not mean that you need to stay til the end, since you get checked at the start of the lecture.
Now, wether we agree or not. On a basis yes. You previously said that for the vast majority of jobs you need a degree. Now you were saying for about half you need a certificate. Certificate ≠ degree. A technical certificate is a type of degree, but a certificate not so necessarily. That is besides the fact that by degree, the general public means a bachelor’s degree and up. Those are two very different documents, and you can get a certificate, such which an electrician requires, in inexpensive ways, even illegally. You don’t necessarily have that choice as a law student.
I do not agree that a simple certificate creates the situation OP is trying to stay out of, which is to pay for education.
I do not agree that the number of jobs requiring a diploma, based on the job market and the skill level of a person, is the majority.
If you feel the same way, then I feel you contradict yourself linguistically, but yes we would agree.
I didn’t mean one percent literally, just a small minority. Using exact numbers figuratively is misleading, so I edited my comment shortly before your answer — probably too late. But hey, that’s the average effort of a post online, amirite?
The real number of people in regulated professions is 22% of the EU workforce. Now consider, that people like electricians are counted here, not just people with a degree. If we were to take those out, that would be even less.
Take out the rest too because of the absolute irrelevance, since in the EU education is so damn cheap, but that’s a different point altogether.
About the privatization of education: If you have to pay 10k strong monies a year to get a workable diploma, then lock every job behind a degree, that is privatization of job opportunities. This is an ongoing issue in the USA, land of the indebted.
On the first part, do not worry; I understand the perspective. I just meant to show how a degree may not be as relevant as other things with my personal experience.
If you want information regarding Spain, feel free to text me. I’m new in Lemmy and never had private messages, but I guess I should get a notification and figure it out.
We clearly misunderstood each other, I did not mean to say in the majority of jobs you need a degree. I was initially just pointing out there is a significant amount of careers in which a degree is in fact required. We do indeed agree on all points as far as I can see.
Now, regarding this supposed privatisation of job opportunities. I am very much aware of the problems with student debt in the US. It is something extremely sad. What is unclear to me is why would this be a privatisation?
I’d rather imagine this leads to further division in social classes i.e. rich people who can afford degrees can access more “palatable” jobs. But I say this without really knowing much of how jobs work now in the US. I’d imagine this would lead to only a small percentage of the US population having a degree, but as far as I can see over 50% of US population has one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment)
As such I can imagine in the US as well the degree would be treated as something cheap and common. I’d imagine this would lead to many jobs in many sectors favouring people with a degree over people who do not have one. As such I can imagine that paying for education in the US could probably lead to better job opportunities. This would be regardless the fact that a degree is required for a certain job or not. It is unclear to me whether people who had to take debt for a degree and get an unspecialised job are able to pay back the debt.
Now, it is a bit sad to talk about degrees and education only under the aspect of job seeking. A degree is a wonderful way to learn things and improve ones thinking skills. Free education is amazing because of this: we all benefit from everyone around being more informed and able to improve things. Widespread education does significantly improve the lives of everyone in a country, regardless of the fact that what one studies is actually useful for a job or not.
When you have to pay for education like it is a luxury, education and opportunities become commodities accessible mostly to the wealthy, which is a form of privatization. If you want onboard, you have to sign your life away in a loan. If you get one.
Since a job is locked behind a degree, bam, you got privatization by gating. It’s technically not the job opportunities themselves being privatized, but the effect is pretty similar.
I absolutely agree on the part that a degree is wonderful in every regard. I would like to study mathematics one day, not because I want to work in that field necessarily, but because I adore the field. It’s like my mind is made for it. Not in an arrogant genius way, more like in an endorphin way. As a kid I always closed my eyes and recreated my environment with basic shapes, using them sort of like voxels, not because of some compulsion, but because it was fun.
But I don’t plan on stopping there. For me, I don’t see why I couldn’t just keep studying till the end of my days. I am sadly not healthy enough for that right now though. Hopefully I get well enough to follow that dream. Everything else is already in place.
I think one thing that often does not get said out loud is that you don’t just learn what is on the agenda, but you also learn to socialize. Like you become a tolerable and tolerating person through such processes and I think it should be talked about way more on the front of being informed from education.