Do humans also have an afterlife in lotr like elves? For that matter, what about dwarfs, hobbits (non fellowship) …orcs?
Tolkien never really makes it clear what happens to men when they die.
The closest thing we get to a statement on it that “their souls go beyond the circles of the world…to dwell with illuvatar.”
Dwarves are even less clear. It’s likely the same as Men but they seem to have their own beliefs on the topic. They believe that they go to the “Halls of Waiting to await the renewal of the world.”
Hobbits, being a mannish race, are the same as Men.
Orcs also are unclear. Tolkien wrote multiple origins for the orcs, none of which made it into his canon books, just his notes that were compiled into the histories.
If they are purely creations of Melkor then killing them would simply destroy them, as they aren’t truly alive. Whereas if they are corrupted Elves and Men they would likely experience the same death as their race of origin.
It’s also worth noting that Elves don’t truly have an afterlife. They have a period of waiting in the Halls of Mandos after which they are reclothed in flesh and can choose to either return to Middle-Earth or remain in valinor.
Also, Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam as ring-bearers were allowed to sail west and live on Tol Eresea, an Island near Valinor so that their injuries from bearing the ring (and in Frodo’s case the morgul blade) wouldn’t bother them. They still only lived out their natural life span and then died the death of Men.
Wow, impressive comment. Username checks out!
I seem to recall that the death of man was considered a gift, as it was a release from the burden of immortality. Also, that some elves could fade away as a counterpart to living endlessly or being killed somehow. (that’s all before returning to the Halls of Mandos, TBC)
And that dwarves were sort of animated mountainous material, and would return thusly.
I’m not much of a scholar, though. Beyond reading the Silmarillion and poring over the LotR appendices quite a few times, the only other stuff I’ve read is… Unfinished Tales and the poem & short story books that treat upon the likes of Farmer Giles and Tom Bombadil.
Thanks, didn’t know this was such a well covered topic… shucks, tolkien strikes again! :D
For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: ‘Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi [Elves] and the Atani [Men]! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in the world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.’ Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest… It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World’s end, and Melkor has not discovered it. -The Silmarillion, “Of the Beginning of Days”
Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own [the Dwarves’] belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm. -The Silmarillion, “Of Aulë and Yavanna”
What do you think the orcs are? Like, which would be your preferred answer to the question, since there appears to be no singular one according to the youtube clip? Or could they be like a group of all four creation myths? :)
based on the text of The Silmarillion, I’d have to say that, being originally Elves, and Melkor having no power to create spirits or imbue living beings with spirits (not even the other Valar can do this, only Ilúvatar; this is demonstrated when Aulë creates the Dwarves), then the Orcs must still have Elven spirits, and thus go to Mandos when they die. but again, that’s assuming The Silmarillion is authoritative on the matter, which it may not be
“Afterlife in LOTR”
posts in Casual ConversationBruh.
spoiler
It might not be controversial like discussion of the afterlife according to real religions, but holy hell is it a deep topic!
hehe, I didn’t expect it to be such a discussed and thought about subject- but then again it’s tolkien we’re talking about… 😅
honestly, as someone who’s only read the hobbit, the trilogy and the silmarillion aeons ago, very little has really stuck. like, i could have remembered the parts quoted here, but alas, most of it is gone… gotta admit, silmarillion i read halfway and had to switch to the audio book since i kept falling asleep… and then the audio book would make me fall asleep too… 😅 so a lot of the silmarillion i only remember like in a dreamy haze… and the whole afterlife part was just something that popped to mind today and I thought, well if i was having a casual conversion with someone who knew a lot about lotr, it would def be a question i’d ask! so, here we are :)
Where Do Orcs Go When They Die? from In Deep Geek explores this somewhat
cool! thanks, that was informative! gotta check out the other vids on the channel now :)
