• perestroika@lemm.ee
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    11 hours ago

    There’s a book on the subject written by Srdja Popovic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueprint_for_Revolution

    Summary: protests that start (and try to remain) non-violent have a greater chance to succeed, because they can attract more people to their cause.

    Critique: with some regimes, it’s not possible to non-violently protest. For non-violent protest to work, the environment must respect a minimum amount of human rights.

    Case samples:

    • US during the civil rights movement era: yes
    • USSR under Gorbachev: yes
    • Serbia under Milosevic: yes, with difficulty on every step (Popovic was there doing it)
    • Israel under Netanyahu: probably yes
    • China under Xi: practically no (not for long)
    • USSR under Kruschev/Brezhnev/Andropov/Chernenko: not really
    • Russia under Putin: no, don’t even hold a blank sheet of paper
    • Iran under Khamenei: only if you’re doing a bread riot
    • Saudi Arabia, USSR under Stalin, NK under the Kim dynasty: no, and execution would be a possible outcome

    …etc. In some places, you can’t organize. Then your only option is to fight. As long as you can publicly organize, definitely do so - it’s vastly preferable. :)

    • this@sh.itjust.works
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      8 hours ago

      Your point is so important that I don’t think it can be stressed enough.

      Nonviolent protests are more popular in public opinion. Public opinion gets you more people on your side. More people on your side is more power, and when the regime starts cracking down on peaceful protests, it will be easier to get more people to fight than it would be of we advocate for violence from the start.

      • perestroika@lemm.ee
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        2 hours ago

        Thanks for correcting. You’re right, I should have written something else than “probably yes” about Israel under Netanyahu. :(

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      8 hours ago

      US during the civil rights movement era: yes

      I gotta ask, how the hell was the US in the 1960s a safe place to nonviolently protest? Police violence aimed at colored protesters during that era was notorious. Plus the church bombings, the lynchings, the assassinations…

    • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 hours ago

      US during the civil rights movement era: yes

      USSR under Gorbachev: yes

      Serbia under Milosevic: yes, with difficulty on every step (Popovic was there doing it)

      Imaginary history.

      Israel under Netanyahu: probably yes

      They murdered hundreds of palestinians during peaceful protests. GTFO with this BS.

      USSR under Kruschev/Brezhnev/Andropov/Chernenko: not really

      Russia under Putin: no, don’t even hold a blank sheet of paper

      Iran under Khamenei: only if you’re doing a bread riot

      Saudi Arabia, USSR under Stalin, NK under the Kim dynasty: no, and execution would be a possible outcome

      How many times can you list russia/ussr? Give me a break with this lib imperialism.

      • perestroika@lemm.ee
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        2 hours ago

        How many times can you list russia/ussr? Give me a break with this lib imperialism.

        I may list it as many times as I need. I was born there and grew up there, and have a whole lot of information about how life was.

    • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
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      8 hours ago

      Not sure you should include Gorbachev since he illegally dissolved the USSR against the will of the people.

      • perestroika@lemm.ee
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        2 hours ago

        Tankies are going to hate this comment.

        They already are. :) I didn’t quite expect this effect, but I welcome it. :)

        • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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          13 minutes ago

          Crazy how triggered (and retarded) they are. Even got one who, rather than admitting he was wrong, doubled down arguing that the GDR was a USSR member state. For some reason that was important to his “argument”.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        7 hours ago

        It’s crazy to talk about the US Civil Rights movement as peaceful, given the police / domestic terrorist bloodbath it resulted in.

        How many civil rights leaders need to be shot to death before a movement isn’t peaceful anymore?

          • RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world
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            9 hours ago

            You do realize that he wasn’t run over unlike the Palestinians who do get run over by Israeli tanks.

            https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-israeli-tanks-deliberately-running-over-dozens-palestinians-alive

            Not just Palestinians, Rachel Corrie got run over by an Israeli bulldozer and she was a peaceful protestor from the US.

            https://www.npr.org/2024/03/30/1241231447/rachel-corrie-gaza-palestinians-aid-israel-hamas-war

            • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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              9 hours ago

              https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs

              The group of protesters remained steadfast, even in the face of annihilation. Shots rang out, innocents were struck, and people began to die. Nonetheless — there was power in numbers, and solidarity that allowed them to find courage — and thousands joined hands as bullets flew. “Students linked arms but were mown down,” wrote Donald. “APCs then ran over the bodies time and time again to make, quote ‘pie’ unquote, and remains collected by bulldozer.”

              As if this wasn’t atrocious enough, the government’s criminal and brutal activity that day got even worse. With no regard for the families of these victims, not to mention their identities, what was left of them was disposed of — in an unspeakably callous manner.

              “Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains,” Donald wrote.

          • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com
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            10 hours ago

            For hell’s sake have you ever seen the entire video from which the picture was extracted? The guy literally stopped the tanks, had a chat with them, and walked away unharmed.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              7 hours ago

              For hell’s sake have you ever seen the entire video from which the picture was extracted?

              Of course not. Nobody actually watches the video. They just see Lego memes of the picture and conclude “Communism Killed 100 Zillion People”

              • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com
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                10 hours ago

                “Oh no, the evil tankies are here to give facts against my CIA-manufactured sinophobic propaganda :(”

                Please, answer: have you ever watched the entire thing?

                  • AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com
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                    8 hours ago

                    This literally shows exactly what I’m saying… There are pictures of tankman climbing the tank to have a chat with the crew…

                    Regardless, I’ve compiled all of the sources from the article:

                    A doctor at the time said

                    a radio announcer reported the

                    Or, even worse:

                    a secret British cable from the time alleged that

                    So essentially: either “source: trust me bro”, or “source: external actor from a geopolitically opposed nation”. Would you be taking “a secret Russian cable from the time alleged that” with regard to, e.g., police repression in BLM protests?

                    Lmao especially at the main (and last) source from the article:

                    Freedom House, an independent organization dedicated to promoting freedom around the world

                    Like, how is this not an obvious CIA front organization? Are you actually that gullible? It’s literally “freedom eagle burger institute”…

                    British ambassador to China Sir Alan Donald wrote a secret diplomatic cable

                    Again with the western sources. This is laughable, and the fact that you would even consider this serious makes you so pathetically gullible that I’m this close to giving up talking with you, but let’s go ahead.

                    The former ambassador explained that his account stemmed from personal conversations from a “good friend” in China’s State Council

                    “Bro I swear, a Chinese official whom I won’t name told me all of this the same day, I swear bro. It doesn’t matter that my country is an anticommunist capitalist regime with clear motives to make up atrocity propaganda as it’s done many times in the past, just trust me bro”. What a fucking joke of a source.

                    Anyway, all of this isn’t to say there was no violence in the Tiananmen protests. Protesters were indeed killed by the army, I’m not arguing against this, I literally only talked about the tankman picture before.

                    But, as your picture evidence proves (there are literally burnt tanks and murdered soldiers in the pictures), this isn’t because “le evil seeseepee authoritarians against peaceful wholesome 100 protesters”. The article actually contradicts the western press reports at the time, which confirmed that the military violence against protestors happened outside the Tiananmen square, proving that your article is mostly manufactured western anticommunist propaganda.

                    The violence started from the protestors against the military, and the military responded. I’m not claiming the response was appropriate, limited and not brutal, I am not really aware of the numbers and I honestly don’t care much to know, they dwarf in comparison with the hundreds of millions of lives that China saved through the land collectivisation policies in the Mao times, the accessibility to decent healthcare, and the decolonisation of China.

                    Bonus point: funny how there is a widespread availability of HQ pictures from a 1989 protest and the victims of state violence in China, but we live in 2025 fully into the smartphone era and there isn’t a single shred of photographic evidence of the famous so-called “Uyghur genocide”

          • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
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            10 hours ago

            thanks CIA, your cringe BS is still cringe.
            Guess that’s all you have, certainly not arguments

            • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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              8 hours ago

              So let me get this clear: your position is that I am CIA and that the Tiananmen square massacre did not happen?

              Is that correct, or am I missing something? Feel free to use “arguments” to explain yourself.

              • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
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                5 hours ago

                you are missing a lot, brains mostly.
                Also not interested in low level basic about the irrelevant tinyman square noise so bye.

                • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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                  5 hours ago

                  you are missing a lot, brains mostly.

                  Hey bloemkool, in the English language, people typically only have one brain. I’m not a zombie, so I have no need for multiple brains. So do you have anything else besides ad hominems?

                  Also not interested in low level basic about the irrelevant tinyman square noise so bye.

                  I just asked two simple yes/no questions. It is telling that you are refusing to answer.

                  • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
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                    5 hours ago

                    I said not interested.
                    And the other answers: “out-of-context, manipulative, anticommunist, CIA-sponsored atrocity propaganda” shows people know what you’re doing.
                    So calling you out on it is not an ad hominem since YOU did it.
                    And you’re the one using cheap obvious fallacies here like putting words in my mouth “the Tiananmen square massacre did not happen”
                    That CIA orchestrated failed attempt at destabilisation maybe was a massacre.
                    Seen pictures of many dead bicycles.
                    Unfortunately also from the lynched police from the rioters who infiltrated the protest.
                    One of the many things that OC was hidden in our oh so free and objective democratic western press.
                    I bet you haven’t got a clue the protest was about.
                    So before I get bored of toying with you, have you something of value and relevant to ad or only more platitudes?