The comments here on this Lemmy post can serve as a perfect demonstration for the reason behind men turning right-wing. Any comment trying to point out some specific aspect of life where men are experiencing more hardships is immediately shut off and getting told these experiences and concerns are invalid.
There is a limit to how much “fuck you” one can hear before going “well, fuck you too”.
There’s an art to diplomacy, and sometimes it involves omitting truths or carefully framing it, even when dealing with awful people, and compromising or postponing grand strategic goals for short-term gains.
I feel like many young men are being alienated by people pissed off with the status quo that fail at or refuse to engage with them diplomatically. I get it, I don’t want to compromise or negotiate on basic human rights and dignity either. I don’t want to wait for things to get better. I don’t want to coddle the sensitive pride of chauvinistic dickheads.
But reactionary grift thrives on the (negative) reaction to being told your way of life, your habits, your norms are bad and wrong, and particularly to the (exaggerated) impression that you are bad and wrong for reasons beyond you control (like being born with a dick) or that you are irrelevant.
We need to find a way to communicate issues more diplomatically and include these men in the conversation and solution rather than making them “the other”.
And we also need to reign in the hardcore misandrists who genuinely do want to turn this into us vs. them.
I thought of sharing my experience but people here were already shouting “you are lying or exaggerating” to anybody who shared their experience opposing the narrative, So I didn’t bother, I reach out to some communities when I feel down or hopeless but don’t expect any support,I know I am not entitled to help but gaslighting that your suffering doesn’t matter or are not real sometime hurts, I’m just trying to find ways to deal with them alone.
Sure is weird how none of my boys have issues dating and maintaining relationships.
It’s almost like these right-wing “children” were raised poorly, and by the same people that scream and cry when they hear the phrase “it takes a village”.
Thank you for proving his point
His point is shit. If they are on the right wing they naturally dont find women who are interested in them. The only one to blame is themselves but since right wingers are incapable of this they blame everyone else.
No wonder they are trying to suppress women’s ability to vote again. I’m fairly certain women outnumber men just given by a statistical outcome of X vs Y chromosome at birth. I’m not certain but there’s probably a statistical study somewhere out there that a left leaving woman married to a right leaning man will vote right due to proximity. I’ve seen the former example in real life many times over sadly.
You boys better start getting real into fucking each other
The joke is on the right-wing men. Good luck finding female partners. Also, the best time to be a left leaning progressive guy.
I mean I’m on the left and even I’m getting tired of hearing how all men are trash, which seems to be the only message about men I hear. Young men are only being courted by the right, and the left doesn’t seem to care or even seems proud about it.
That’s because you’re relentlessly being propagandized by corporate social media, and falling for exactly what they want you to fall for.
Turn that shit off. You don’t need it & you’re happier without it.
I love men. Men are awesome <3
I’ve never in my entire life heard a single person say that all men are trash. I think you’re either lying or exaggerating, and you haven’t either.
Pointing out that some men do horrible things is a common observation. Asking that men stop other men from doing bad things is another thing that could sounds burdensome. I can see how these types of statements might upset you if you’re missing the context or the speaker is unclear. But neither of them is equivalent to saying that all men are trash.
I didn’t have that experience, therefore you are lieing.
Wonder why men are turning away
Where the hell are you hearing this? Genuinely, i have not encounteted this perspective for years now, so the fact you consider it the only perspective on the left feels crazy
Look at society, look as tv ads, look at movies, look at tv shows. Who’s always the moron dad? Who’s always the asshole villain? Who’s always a perfect girl boss putting the guy in his place?
When have you seen a recent female action lead that wasn’t just a Marry Sue owning her male counterpart? Who are the GOOD male, masculine role models?
Women objectified in movies? How dare you! Men being objectives and haha funny!
I know it might seem silly to you and petty, but young man are constantly being put down and being told to shut up.
Meanwhile it’s still cool / funny to make fun of men being raped in prison. Men even voicing concerns about the fact that they are losing out are being told suck it up, you’ve had a good run!
I just feel like liberals and modern culture has completely abandoned catering to men. Again that doesn’t mean supporting rapists like Trump, but does mean having real, masculine, capable, heroic men that young boys and men can look up to.
Frankly, I haven’t been hearing it so much as I have been experiencing it.
Well, “where” is still the salient question there.
probably a lot of genz showed a signicant shift towards right wing , most likely has to do with right wing pundits, like j peterson, joe roegans, TPUSA,etc.
Let me remind you that they are simply left to sink or swim in a survival situation where the world seems to want them dead.
My own mind goes to eugenicy places when I realize what world we live on.
I was left on the street for dead at 17.
Radicalized me to the left, not the right, but of course I was that age during occupy wall st.
It’s the goddamn right wing influencers, and parents not supporting thier young adult children while they’ve already had unrestricted internet acess since they were little. “The world wants them dead” the world wants me dead too.
It’s hard to understand for me, the boys in my family were always allowed more freedom, more choice, less responsibility. Three generations it was like that. The mother’s love their son’s, hate their daughters. The father’s teach thier son’s, and rape thier daughters, and love no one, not even themselves.
Three generations of that in my family. It’s so hard to empathize, “the world wants them dead”. Better dead than you father’s slave, trust. That’s why I hit the street.
the left doesn’t seem to care
So if a guy beats up a woman your compliant here is the woman should placate him to make him stop somehow.
See this is exactly what GaMEChld is talking about, with the first mention of men the first thing you thought about was assault. As if this is the norm yeah? An inherent trait of normal people. Men, what do they do? In their free time they watch football and assault women. Smh You need to surround yourself with normal people my friend
The post is comparing genders political leanings and a comment trying to convince us with this tripe that it falls squarely on women who are argued to be voting on the left here and you’re here saying we’re permitted to talk about the why of it. The permeation of violence that does shape men’s world.
And violent men who don’t want to talk about it….where are the Epstein files….
We’re talking about it. Regardless of your ‘permission’. I do not need your permission. No one here does.
Men are more dangerous to both genders than women. This is statistically a fact.
Let’s be clear: this is not the same as saying women never violate men. Cuz I know that’s another little card all you incels like to reach for whenever this fact is brought up to try to steer it off course. And let me warn you: if you were gonna lean hard on that: you no longer can convince me you give a shit about men or mens mental health if that is how you think this should play.
Placing the ownership on everything else: women, the left, the dog, the cat, everyone but the person who CAN change the situation is being done here.
Stop blaming the left.
Stop blaming women.
Pull up your big boy pants and Own your shit.
… because every… many, like, every woman I’ve ever been friends with, which isnt a whole lot compared to the 8 billion people, but yet, every woman I’ve been friends with has experienced sexual assault at least once.
What I think also needs to be brought up, is many people who go on to assault, were once assaulted themselves as a child. Women talk about this, men really don’t. What I mean is, if a young girl gets raped, even if it’s secret at frist, she will likely seek support at some point. I don’t think men do in the same way, they seem to internalize, from what I’ve seen.
My step father raped his bio daughter, was raped by his uncle himself at 12.
My uncle, raped his daughter too, also raped as a child by his uncle (maybe the same one).
My Dv relationship, the guy was raped by the mothers boyfriend at 10.
An ex, who was adopted wholly through the system, raped at 12 by his dad, “but it only happened once so I forgive him”. This guy is the only one on this list who wouldn’t hurt a fly, but he was the type who didn’t wash or wipe his bum properly, because it might make you “gay”.
Another ex, was raped by a male authority figue in his life, and I only know from a wild acid trip he got black out drunk for. He wouldn’t have told me sober. He was vauge, but clear, with his story. The man sobbed for 4 hours. I was on half the acid he was, and had not drank. He was mean to me sometimes, and didn’t respect me, but I still cried with him and held hella empathy with him in that moment.
The year I was going to sign my kid up for scouts, the leader got arrested for molesting multiple boys, I never ended up putting my kid in scouts for this fear. Based on observation, I strongly suspect he has some dark history too.
Is it right this happens? No. Is it frequent enough it could be considered “normal”? Honestly… not normal, but common.
And men don’t get support, they’re “not allowed to talk about it”, they don’t want to talk about it, so they hit the bottle and get involved in what we can define as risky behavior. And they suffer, and some put their suffering on others, and spread this disease further.
My own brother, who as far as I know was never raped, and has never raped, won’t attend family gatherings with children about, because we’ve so much familial history with this kind of thing, he just stays away. Once me and my sister had children, he ghosted.
It’s a disease that affects not only the main victim, but all the people around them.
It’s a serious thing, and this is what I think needs talking about more. Shift it off women, men rape, men don’t rape… let’s talk about male on male violence for a fucking second.
If an adult man, rapes a young boy, how does that move through his life experience? How does that shape who he is? How does it define “power” to these young men? How can we help these kids? How can we stop this?
I think, vulnerability, and talking about it, men sharing there stories so that others can too, bring awareness to it, would be a fucking start. How many men walk around each day with this shit weighing on them?
Every man who has raped me had a story. All I’m fucking saying. It starts somewhere, and as maladaptive as it is, it is a fucked up coping usually for truama in their life. It’s holding power over another to make oneself feel “strong”.
We don’t get to pick our families, and fucked up shit happens to kids, all the damn time. Sexual violence as a whole needs to be adressed. I want to see it end. It causes so much pain for he/she/they alike.
how do you incentivize against dominating women for sexual gratification? it’s hard, especially when they have been indoctrinated since they were around 10-12 years old through major media and online pornographic content.
now it’s almost impossible to stop as they become adults and have been given permission from their role models that their behavior is not only acceptable but it’s the only way to live.
mark my words, a large percentage of gen-z males will become domestic terrorists because they feel they have been mistreated and abandoned by society.
if you have young daughters, teach them self-defense early and make them aware of the dangers these men pose to their safety when they come of age.
Y’all worried about the guys, but what about the bears? Women already prefer them, but those mammals also sketch af
As a man I would genuinely like to thank women for holding the torch of progressivism.
This means that left-leaning men will raise happier families, while the incel-aligned will have their own bloodlines end in deserved extinction. 🎉
Young boys are exposed to near constant right wing internet programming and are increasingly attacking girls in school, verbally and physically, starting as early as elementary school.
Combine that with largely apathetic and inattentive parents + very few male teachers and school is becoming an absolute nightmare for everybody
This essentially reflects the rise in incel school shooters except these young men just grow up to become bitter right wing misogynistic bigots instead. They have nowhere to go but right
the incel thing is such a self fulfilling prophecy - they embrace it then can’t imagine why women recoil from them. so they further radicalize.
nice job conservatives, you really fucked up an entire generation
its a negative feedback loop. J peterson, and joe roegan, shapiro achieve that by negative reinforcement.
I like how the maga women are leaving their maga husbands even in White House it’s like yeah…just wearing an maga hat doesnt make you as alpha as you thought bro. On that note I wish Steve miller gets swallowed by his top lip one day.
in r/teacher sub, the hs students are doing that, specificaly the male students have become more disrespectful towards female teachers.
The good news, I guess, is that people can get better. I was one of those people who moved further right in young adulthood. I’m glad the social media and such didn’t exist then as I was not equipped to handle that by my upbringing and would have fallen right into that trap. We just had Limbaugh and Beck and the like. At some point, I pulled a 180 and, now in my mid-40s, find myself probably somewhere around center-left to left as most western European countries might define that.
Not really a coherent philosophical narrative for them to latch onto; ‘the world is fucked, they’re fucked’ is the main message they hear.
Huh, interesting that Limbaugh and Beck had that effect on you. I feel like they weren’t as readily accessible as modern right wing talking heads. What changed for you? What made you realize things and turned it around?
I had a lot of issues growing up. Neurodivergent kid in rural Ohio in the '80s, lots of conservative people around, abusive people in my family making stuff hard for much of my young childhood, and a number of other things. I wanted the same thing anyone joining a gang wants, really. Acceptance, feeling like I belong, and feeling like I was fighting something or for something better.
I came from a place where I, very much without knowing it, was very entitled and privileged. I was kept away from others a lot as a kid (lived with my grandparents for a bit and wasn’t allowed to play with the other neighbors (who were in my class) because they were not white. Other perspectives were few and far between when and where I grew up. There are some other reasons that there were huge gaps in my critical thinking and bullshit detection (partly due to not questioning people in power and getting heavily punished when I did). I got taken advantage of a lot when I first got out on my own and had to basically do a lot of lessons that most kids/teens learned as an adult with much more dire consequences.
I felt like I was working hard and that others’ failures were because they didn’t work hard enough (and that I didn’t work hard enough when I was failing). In reality, a lot of people attribute way too much of their success to their own skill not luck and circumstance. At the same time I was thinking other people were lazy, I was also helped by some of my family through some financial hard times more than once (though I was briefly homeless another time). I came to realize, as I met more and varied people, that some of the hardest workers I knew were getting fucked over. Two jobs, caring deeply about their families, and barely able to tread water to support themselves and those that relied on them.
Contradictions between people claiming to be christians and anything that christ would have done. People thinking they were holy and great for holding some coat drive and stuff, but any tax dollars for a safety net were just terrible and those people were just going to spend it on drugs. People who kept pulling up every bit of safety because “fuck you, I’ve got mine”, for lack of a better term was just more and more visible when I looked at what was going on. Also being out on my own and working when 9/11 happened and the crazy amounts of hate and racism that followed that. I slowly started actually seeing all of these things, losing that entitlement, not othering people, and realizing things for what they were. I traveled to other places, saw other ways of life. The early internet and chatting people from around the world via IRC and the like also played a role in that.
Living as a minority in another country (I moved to Japan in my early 30s), getting randomly stopped and searched, struggling to find housing, and other things also cemented many of the other things I had already been learning. I am a deeply empathetic person, but I had always assumed that everyone was acting in good faith in a lot of situations and that merit would see me treated “properly”. That’s not the reality. The reality is that people are messy and flawed, that people are mostly good but often wary. This can manifest as racism in the guise of “protecting our culture and way of life” where those others getting stopped and searched (often in front of their communities, peers, clients, etc. who have no idea what is going on and assume the worst) was just a mild inconvenience. That experience in particular showed me exactly what white, male privilege in the US was. I could never see it clearly since I always had it.
This is a very long and rambling response. I guess the TL;DR would be seeing my own entitlement and privilege, realizing that people in power and authority often don’t get there through merit and/or hard work alone (if at all), and generally getting more experience and seeing and experiencing inequity.
My husband has said your TL;DR verbatim when we were early in dating. He got there a different way, but he said what he went through was an eye opener for him, changing him profoundly, while giving him a lot of gratitude for what he does have, and is able to do.
I think toxic podcasts have a big influence on young men, especially those who grew up without strong father figures. My own dad wasn’t perfect (I joke a bit about it on my profile), and many of us went through that risky “2015 phase” of consuming unhealthy online content.
What many politicians and advocates on the left often overlook is that toxic masculinity isn’t solved by telling men to be “less masculine.” You can actually counter unhealthy masculinity with healthy masculinity. Instead of shaming men, we should be teaching a better version of manhood one that includes therapy, emotional intelligence, and being able to talk honestly about what’s going on inside.
As corny as it sounds there’s a reason when there’s a bad take by a misinformed feminist calling all men evil on twitter ganders a response like “This is why men turn right” and sure while that stuff doesn’t work on me anymore, It’s not 2015-2016 there’s still some vulnerable people that unfortunately fall for it, does that mean though that the feminist is wrong in her views? Not really, but I’m not talking about myself I’m talking about a lot of men that do fall for it.
Most working-class men who grind through 9–5 jobs, going from shift to shift, are worried about affordability and stability. If someone comes along and says “I’m going to make your life easier,” that’s who they’ll vote for even if it’s Trump. You can call them naïve or say the leopards ate their face or whatever , but the reality is that many of these men are desperate for change. And they’ll keep voting for whoever promises that change. When society pushes these men aside or dismisses them, some end up looking for someone to blame. That’s when you get people saying, “Women are the reason my life is hard,” or “Jews control everything.”
Of course, some people are genuinely racist or sexist, and there will always be trolls who just want attention. But why do those trolls exist in the first place? Often it’s because they feel insignificant, and attaching themselves to extreme movements gives them a sense of identity and purpose they don’t have otherwise.
jordan peterson, and joe roegan under putin played a big part in shoring up gop support in the usa, and then the other right wing talking heads. tate brothers is just a side benefit, which are borne out of the toxic pickup artist games.
One of my favorite counter-arguments (so to speak) against Toxic Masculinity being the “true” masculinity is that it’s based so much on toughing out emotions, denying them, not showing physical or emotional weakness, etc. Yet, this misses the incredible display of deep confidence and self-image that come from being able to display humility, compassion, and sadness without feeling like that’s a risk to your “manliness”.
If what defines someone as a man is based so heavily on what others think of them or code them as, they are actually saying other people control whether or not they are considered masculine/manly, which is not very Alpha Male of them.
On Parks and Recreation, Ron Swanson wins an award and teases Leslie Knope about it. She ends up saying to him, “That’s not really the attitude I’d expect from an award winner.” He responds, “Everything I do is the attitude of an award winner, because I have won an award.” I feel like this can be adjusted for anyone self-identifying as “masculine”, “feminine”, or any other such thing - “Everything I do is inherently manly, because I am a man.” (adjust as appropriate)
That last part reminds me of a 4chan (?) meme of the Chad saying that he knows that trans women are women because he’s straight so everyone that he likes is a woman.
Could you name a few books by “advocates on the left” that criticise masculinity but argue for less masculinity rather than a redefinition of masculinity?
To be honest with you I don’t know a lot, and yeah I guess that’s your point but I remember reading The will to change: men, masculinity, and love by beli hooks back in my 2015 phase and I don’t remember a lot from it, but I think it made some good points.
A few incels snuck into this comment section
If “the left” called you “a bigot” or “sexist” or “isn’t letting you find a wife” you’re probably a sexist bigot no one would touch with a 10-foot pole.
Every damn time “men’s issues” come up there’s like 100 dudes saying one of the issues is “can’t find a wife”. We all know what that means. Go jerk off. Politics is above you.
My favorite are the incels on reddit et al that talk about how family courts are stacked against them and that the women leave them and “take everything”
I worked as a family lawyer before, men didn’t even show up in 9/10 cases.
I don’t think this is factual. I think there are many reasons why families have declined.
pssst don’t let the facts of reality get in the way of good liberal/leftwing narrative that narratives where men are evil and women are good. any any women and men who disagree with our politics are stupid and bad people.
because clearly nobody can have any legitimate reasons for being conservative… nor can we let a little thing like economic reality of young men being bleak get in the way of our moral grandstanding about ‘incels’. as if they some huge political force and and not a tiny minority
This post sounds superficially like it’s trying to justify conservatism, but that bleak economic reality is caused by conservatism.
But women just don’t get me, if they just listen it would be easier.
Meanwhile gestures vaguely at what they have to listen to.
My teen observed …… guys are more likely to appreciate edgy, crude or offensive humor. Guys are more likely to be entertained by those assholes, even if they don’t agree with their message
Most queer folks have a darker, edgier, more offensive sense of humor than the average right-winger and they tend to skew left so I don’t think it’s the humor that’s winning them over.
I guess that’s true, but you’d also have to qualify that as being self-deprecating humor that’s clearly tongue-in-cheek, as opposed to straight-up hateful messages being passed off as humor. Like, “What up, f-slur”, “That was homophobic” for whenever something doesn’t go their way, and “Gays don’t deserve rights” for whatever silly thing they pretend to dislike. It’s all very self-aware and actually funny. The quality is on another level.
I think they mean dark humour as in “scream a racial slur as loud as possible and call it a joke.”
Reminds me of a time I was at a party and this dude is like “hey I’ve got this super funny song, wanna hear it?” Then after folks agree to hear it he thinks for a second “also it kinda has some bad words, is that okay? You’re not gonna get offended?” Then plays a song that just has a bunch of racial slurs for shock value and nothing funny or redeeming about it. I don’t think a single person laughed and I hope it was as awkward for him as it seemed like it could’ve been
its all punching down, they just dont understand the nuances
I guess what I’m getting at is we shouldn’t let them get away with claiming that they like humor when they clearly just like bigotry. Humor takes nuance.
Things are looking up for this 59 year old left winger.
This is how the entwives ended up getting lost.
And they will never be found because they don’t call themselves “entwives”
You’re telling me people privileged in a system are more likely to defend that system? Wowie, I hadn’t thought of that.
