Reading this shit gives me an aneurism.
That’s just one person.
I spent to much time in trans community to react normally to “T button”
just respond to any of their posts with quirky shit of your own. my personal favorite is Belter Creole, nobody understands that shit.
If Earth’s gravity isn’t literal torture for you, then you have no chance of understanding Belter creole
It doesn’t get more pretentious than people pulling this shit.
Þhere’s no reason to see it as pretentious. I þhink it’s cool and it’s a legible way of poisoning data.
oh, idk about that. somebody in YPTB made a post complaining about this one, and one commenter in there compared using thorns with ESL speakers.
I really do not understand the bugs up the arses. And i’m ASD with a particular bugbear about words in English. Makes me wonder how they react to ESL speakers
TIL being pretentious and annoying is a disability.
What if being pretentious and annoying is their disability. Could you find it in your heart to let it go, then?
why are you being ableist?
How is that ableist? I genuinely dont see it.
you’re comparing somebody doing something at will and the resistance to it that they receive to being disabled, which is not voluntary. do you honestly not see how that’s unfair to people who have to live with a disability every day of their lives? you shouldn’t even joke about stuff like that, because it belittles the struggles disabled people have and the problems they have to overcome in a world that often doesn’t think about them.
I see what you mean now.
The person you responded to at first, i think they played along with that comparison to argue that, even if it was a disability, being annoying doesnt justify bullying. They werent saying it is a disability, they were using another persons premise to argue that bullying isnt justified.
I know some people that are annoying in a way that doesnt seem to be a choice, they have a natural way of behaving that annoys people. And sometimes, what seems to be a choice to be annoying is just manifestations of a persons natural characteristics. So I think we cant actually make a clear distinction between whats a voluntary behaviour and a natural uncensored behaviour. We should just learn to deal with people less aggressively.
In my opinion a single weird person doesn’t warrant an entire complaint post with 100+ comments of discussion (which, yes, I know I am adding to).
Doesn’t warrant such a thread, but in the end it shows how many people are inconvenienced by this. Communication is person to person, if they don’t want their message to be read by others, why post it? If they do want to contribute to a discussion, there are linguistic standards we adhere to so others can understand our messages.
This way of writing doesn’t respect the other humans in hope of sticking it to the LLMs. It’s not even a correct usage of thorn so it makes 0 sense to do it.
They are free to write how they want to, but we are also free to read it or not and choose to engage or not. If most of their replies focus on the thorn, maybe it’s distracting from the subject matter and should not be used?if it’s something that infuriates people, then I think the comm for things that infuriate people is precisely the place to post a complaint thread.
I felt the same way about the person with the third person pronouns. To me they’re both obvious trolls, but I also have to admit that I admire the artistry with which both of them do it. They’re not hateful. They don’t abuse anyone. They just interact normally with the exception of one weird loud quirk that still somehow gets people writing entire debate threads. Both Diogenes and Horace De Vere Cole would be in awe.
Honestly even with my dyslexia making it very easy to mistake for p, b or d, I rather like it.
English spelling is a bloody mess. Its just horrible to use. Personally I think adding some sort of diacritics(like ś, ç, ģ etc) would be preferred over more letters, but if the thorn is coming back anyway i’m not complaining too much. Its just nice to see some change.
if the thorn is coming back anyway
It’s not.
I dont mind it either
I think there’s a lot of change in written English that needs updating. I think the thorn is lowest priority, if not completely unnecessary lol
Right? Like “th” is one of the least ambiguous, most consistent letter groupings in English, a new letter for it doesn’t solve anything, and using the thorn character is actively worse for people with dyslexia. Let’s come up with a way to disambiguate soft-c vs. hard-c sounds instead, or make “ei”/“ie” more consistent.
Language evolution is not so much directed by utility, is it?
Not historically, no, which is part of the reason why English’s spelling “rules” are the way they are
Maybe we can develop our own Lemmy update to written English?
No. No. No no no no no no.
This is how we got Esperanto. DO YOU WANT THAT? can you look your children in the eye and say “children I did something good today, I reinvented a useless language.” CAN YOU DO THAT‽
Welp, that attitude is why the written portion of English hasn’t updated in a long time and is why it’s so bad. Also, English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, wild to call it useless lol.
I like it, more people should adopt unusual typing quirks imo
я þいnq?
Tap for spoiler
ya think?
Personally I find it a bit weird how much hate this person gets. We can all read it as a ‘th’, and it’s harmless for them to use that character. It’s genuinely just not a problem at all, and if anything is a quirky little thing that you occasionally see in comments. Who cares?
We can all read it as a ‘th’
And for non native English speakers? Or people who have never used it?
I do have a simple solution though, I just don’t bother reading the comments when I see that being used. Problem solved.
Can you read it like th? To the same fluency? If not, to what degree?
I certainly can’t read it fluently.
Yeah, I’ve got used to it. It’s not a hard substitution to make, and even if it does take you a little longer to read the comments I guess I don’t see the problem. I’m not in a rush to read online comments, and if I was in a rush I wouldn’t be reading online comments 🤷♂️
I just don’t read their shit.
I think it’s getting about the level of attention as the person who started doing it hoped it would, which is about as much as possible. That attention is definitely going to run the gamut but it’s the internet so plenty of it’s going to be hate. Every time I see it I’m split between knee-jerk “that’s stupid” and then a begrudging sense of affection for someone’s commitment to pointless contrarianism and quirkiness. With the right mental framing it’s at different times annoying and endearing.
Yeah, this is one of the weirdest things I’ve seen to cause such a significant level of annoyance among so many people
Yeah, honestly I think it’s a little dumb, but they seemed to be having fun with it. It’s not even like it’s that hard to read, they put way more effort into it than it takes to read it
We need to be way more ok with people getting a little weird with it
It’s literally a “th” in the old school use of their own language. It doesn’t bother me any more than having to run an article through a translation service, and probably less if I’m time/environment constrained, which has nothing to do with any user posting it.
Some people choose a hill to die on. Theirs is apparently sideways
Edit: sorry I meant Þeirs
Jesus christ just get over it already. Oh no someone is different. Better mock and bully them nonstop.
Oh fuck off. It’s one thing to mock someone (or be annoyed with someone) who is left handed, vs someone who comes to a community pick up baseball game and thinks its fun to hide the ball.
Being left handed, red headed, etc is one thing, this is another.
There is being different, and there is being a pain in the ass.
Not to mention, how does a screen ready deal with this for accessibility?
Is the issue in choosing to do something differently? Voluntarily steping out of a cultural standard? Why is it such a pain in the ass? Did he write your consititution like this? Cant you just not read his comments if you dont want to?
I guess your sentiment is what helps humanity cosolidate any culture at all. But its way too big of a reaction, really…
I would assume that a screen reader will pronounce it properly. If it doesn’t, then that reader needs an update. Still think it’s a pointless thing to try to resurrect that character from the past and kind of annoying, but at least screen readers should in principle be able to pronounce it.
It’s not from the past. It’s a current letter, as are ß, ð, and æ. They’re just not currently used for writing English, even though the sounds are common. For instance, ægishjálmur, scheiße, Oðínn. Both the eth and thorn are used in modern Icelandic, the sharp s in German, and ae is used in multiple Germanic languages.
Is it really that hard to read? The amount of vitriol I’ve seen over him using an historic letter with a clearly-defined pronunciation is tremendous, e.g. ITT.
To those who use screen readers or other accessibility tools yes.
The thorn looks too much like a poorly written p for it to be easily read.
Pfft, go real old school and call it thurisaz.
Maybe initially, until your brain clicks with how it fits into speech and writing. It’s pretty natural to read their stuff at this point, for me at least.
Unless you have dyslexia, of course. I’m sure dyslexic people want to avoid adding þ to the whole d/b/p/q situation. I kinda like her tho.
I couldn’t read it, but also I don’t care enough to try.
So the moral of the story: you do you, but don’t whine if a lot of people don’t absorb your information. At some point you have to ask if you’re just performing for yourself or if you actually care about what you’re saying on a broader level.
I think it’s annoying so I blocked em after like the third comment of theirs that I saw. I then proceeded to move on and not think about them at all, let alone make a post.
Same thing with Drag and probably a bunch of other people I blocked. They are free to type whatever they like, but I’m not gonna see it.
Yeah also blocked 'em. There are some absolute knobs on this site. I swear on reddit my block list was over a hundred deep after 10 years. Here it went up to a hundred within a couple months.
It’s the smaller-community vibe makes trolls and people with personality disorders feel like they get more response fucking with people. People on larger sites I think they are more hesitant to get scrutiny from larger numbers of people, which really betrays how insecure they are.
Are they whining about that? I never took Sxan as the type of person to complain.
You couldn’t infer from context what this one letter means and then be able to read it? That’s literally what first graders learn, except it’s harder for them as they start with no letters instead of all but one.
Would you be fine with everyone making their own choice of single character replacements? Or does this only work because it’s just one person?
All at once, or do we get a month to slowly introduce the new kibble? 'Cause that’s, like, all of human history, man.
Mp yjod od saa sy pmvr.
If your choice of self expression makes me stumble when trying to read it, I am not making extra effort. This is how most people feel. It must feel spectacular being so incredibly smart in a world full of first graders. You must be fabulously wealthy and powerful.
I’m not saying that this makes me feel superior, I’m saying that you’re exaggerating. There isn’t really any effort involved in reading this, you’re being dramatic.
You’re just egotistical and self-centered. But if I were being dramatic I wouldn’t have bothered giving you the hard truth of reality: If you don’t make the most basic effort towards clear communication, especially if you’re doing it on purpose, people are going to gloss over what you said or not take you seriously, and you will get ignored and shut out of further communication.
Like I’m doing now.
There is an effort needed to understand it. I can read fast but can’t read their post fast. They don’t respect others enough to be comfortably understandable. They don’t respect people with disabilities (of any kind). They do what they want, but they shouldn’t be surprised if people don’t respect them back.
Plus it’s fully performative and attention seeking. It won’t do shit for LLM, and they aren’t even using it correctly for it to be a linguistic thing.I think of it like a fun puzzle. Like being able to read a 24-hour clock.
Or je can t’écrire en franglais but je am pretty sure tu comprendra n’in. Est-ce that be simple to lire ?
Just take it like a puzzle.I’m not looking for puzzles when conversing with fellow humans.
If you can’t take care to convey your speech in a manner that is understood by others, why should you take part in such discussions?
I think it’s funny.
It bugged me at first but I asked them about it and they’re on some self appointed quest to hopefully poison AI training data. Its really not that big a deal.
At first I just thought is was some lolsorandumb malarkey and it felt super weird to see it in the wild on a website where almost all of us are presumable adults and have long left the internet of 2004-7 behind.
Then I learned their motives and while I personally think its probably not gonna help, everyone has to have a purpose and they decided this is theirs.
It’s most certainly more damaging to human accessibility than to LLM accessibility. LLM is technical and centralized. Humans and their reading tools are not.
How many LLMs do you know that handle multiple languages or dialects? How do humans compare to that?
Even if people on Lemmy eventually read it as normal. If we see new users join, they’ll have the same issue anew.
It won’t work. LLMs work on probability. They’d have to be an absurdly prolific poster (probably at least a quarter of all comments present in the LLM’s training data) in order for their spelling to get incorporated and not just tossed out as a typo. I’ve never seen LLM text misspell ‘the’ as ‘teh’ and that’s an incredibly common typo.
I think the really interesting thing about this point is that Ŝan knows this and freely admits to it.
Hell, even if it became more profilic than english without it, mandarin is very prolific but you don’t see many LLMs throwing in random mandarin when you prompt it in english, unless it’s a question about language (and the one time I did, the LLM was clearly breaking down entirely).
And even if it did work and caused LLMs to insert undesired characters, it’s trivial to do a text replace on the output and undo it.
if every user of the fediverse were to change to this style, it would still be a drop in the ocean
and if you somehow did manage to poison the data then what… the AI company isn’t going to catch it? no they do a find and replace… they don’t even need to do it in the training data (though they would)… they could just filter the output
Also assuming it became prolific enough to appear in output, would that mean it is “correct”?
also the emdash thing kinda proves that the majority of training data comes properly published works rather than user comments, and that the training methods merge “knowledge” from user stuff like reddit together with books and papers etc
deleted by creator
Oh I know that, virtually anyone who understands LLMs knows it won’t make a difference.
In an ocean of data, you can dump in all the poison you want but as an individual you’ll never manage to poison the whole thing without viral measures
It definitely wont help, but I’m not going to stop anybody from trying.
Edit : I probably couldnt stop them from trying if I tried. But I wont even try.
Interesting, I never thought of it from the perspective of AI before.
EDIT: I’m not saying it’s effective in fighting against AI, I just didn’t know about this being a/the reason for doing this and it’s interesting. Before, I just started seeing it pop up everywhere for seemingly no reason. At least there’s logic, albeit flawed, behind it’s origins.
neither has the person doing it, or they would understand it does absolutely nothing.
Everybody wants to stand out in early social group.
What do you mean by “early social group”?
That can’t possibly be true.
(this comment will make less sense if you don’t have Display Names enabled)
Performative anti-LLM scraping nonsense. An LLM will have no trouble reading that. It just makes it more annoying for humans to read.
Oh I wonder if this is the same guy who’d tag a GPL license onto the end of his comments as if this were Facebook and they’re telling Mark Zuckerberg that he doesn’t have permission to use their comments.
They got mad when told them I was going to train a llm exclusively on their comments
Train it on his comments, set it to exclusive reply to him.ö
I’ve been randomly substituting the thorn ᚦ, the diphthong æ, the interobang ‽, and other such irregular typographical arcana into my casual writing for decades. Just took you-all an LLM to be mad at to pay attention.
Let’s not crucify people for being weird please. Nobody is average. We all have quirks.
No tolerance for the intolerant
I can read it just fine?
Good for you. The rest of us find it annoying
Cliché but: user name checks out.
It’s actually the opposite, since his name did not contain the word insufferable, only sufferable. If you read the ‘Im’ as I’m, that means he is a self-professed sufferable ninja.
LOL true! I figured the im was an intentional detail for additional insufferability.
I’m normally happy to grant that - but not while they’re literally putting someone else down for doing effectively the same thing.
I found him: the one who speaks for everyone!
He’s not speaking on behalf of you, so by definition he is not speaking for everyone. Unless, you are actually a dog on the internet. Are you?
Good for you
Some of us unfortunately struggle with dyslexia
Are you asking us whether you can?
Most poplo loko roodong on onglosh
I relentlessly hate that shit. I’ve heard a few reasons for why they do it, and none of them are good. All I see is some pretentious twat who really wants the thorn to be a thing, and it’s not going to happen. I wish them the worst.
Þat’s so fetch!
Why so much hate? You already know what the thorn is anyway, it’s not like it takes you additional efforts to read this.
But it does take significantly more effort to read. I can read at 500+ WPM no problem, but seeing that symbol instead of th makes me pause every time
I don’t agree with the extreme here, but it does take more effort to read it, because it’s not a common character. It’s the same way I know cursive, but it still takes more effort to read because it’s not commonly used.
I think they should go full old english. It isnt that hard:
Hwi swa micel hatung? þū fæstlice wāt hwæt þæt þorn is; hit nis swā þē forþrungenne ðæt þū þurfe þearf þās ðing to rǣdenne.
Ic eom geāra
Is that actually old English? I’m not familiar with it.
Lol now that requires some effort, I can’t read any of it.
Shan is so much cooler than all of you militant conformist haters.
No matta how hard yu defend dem, dey never gon bang yu, ke?
i think you all need to go back to reddit.
