Venezuelans who come to the US tend to be wealthier, in order to be able to get here, and have enough issues with their country in order to leave, issues that they will usually blame on the leadership.
None of this is to say Maduro has majority support, he doesn’t by most accounts, or that they don’t represent a sizable chunk of Venezuelans who don’t like Maduro, but that his support isn’t as non-existent over there as it is here.
It’d be like if Trump took over the US and you only got your views on what Americans think from expat communities in Canada. They would probably cheer his death, even if it was by a foreign empire, but that wouldn’t be representative of average Americans who probably wouldn’t like the foreign intervention, even if they don’t like Trump.
What Venezuelans do with Venezuela is their own business.
For many Venezuelans seeing Maduro go is a good thing. At the same time kidnapping a foreign leader is just wrong and will have long term negative repercussions. Both being true doesn’t invalidate each other.
It’s always interesting to watch these things unfold. I feel like unfortunately the right and MAGA always seem more informed about this stuff. The left leaning spaces had a weird lag where they didn’t realize Venezuelans didn’t like Maduro. The left seems like it just reacts whereas the right are proactive lately
I don’t think MAGA is more informed on this, they just have a different myopic view. They’re only listening to the Venezuelan diaspora in the US who are almost entirely happy about Maduros ousting.
The reality is Maduro is a controversial figure in Venezuela, just like trump is here. A majority don’t like him, a smaller percentage hate him and some people like him. Ignoring any of these factions and flattening all Venezuelans down to one opinion is why we got here. Trump was buying everything the diaspora was telling him about how everyone over there hates Maduro and we just need to take him out and his whole regime will fall down like a house of cards. Maduros regime wasn’t a house of cards like they were told though and it does have some base that will require a lot more than I think trump is willing to do to topple it.
You gotta be on something if your think MAGA are ‘nore informed’
I don’t know. It depends on how you classify informed. I’d bet they, on average, spend more time glued to a “news” source, so they’re being informed, 24/7, just not with truth.
I realized this when I first visited Mexico, what you see here is not necessarily representative of that nation. The people who come here are the hungry ones looking to make money or just get out of Mexico. When I went to Mexico City I suddenly saw lots of BMWs, Mercedes, nice homes (and a lot of rough areas), etc. The people who come here come here because they are poor and ambitious/desperate, the well to do ones stay there.
A similar thing with Indian immigrants but we get the ones with higher education, the money to leave and live here, fluent in English, curious and ambitious, etc. The poor and uneducated aren’t coming over.
This can also be said of the Cuban diaspora. So many people that I know (including those in my family) will shit talk “communism” and praise Trump as if he was their own personal savior. This don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of Marxism let alone leftist political thought as a whole. Yes, Soviet-style Marxism-Leninism led to authoritarianism and the Castro regime wasn’t great. But do you really someone like Flugencio or (for a modern reference) Bukele serving US capitalist interests?
It doesn’t matter what style of Marxist ideology is attempted, they will all lead down to the same path of authoritarianism, mismanagement, and corruption. The ideologies and underlying framework are fundamentally flawed.
That being said, I don’t appreciate the false dichotomy. There’s clearly more, and way better options than a corrupt tyrannical leftist state or a corrupt tyrannical right wing state put in by the US. There’s no reason anyone should support either because they’re lesser of evils when there are paths to pick something that’s not evil at all.
I feel like I’m a rare breed of anti-communist that also isn’t anti-leftist.
I was born in PRC, I hate the CCP for both it’s politics and on a personal level (2nd child born under One Child Policy, which they tried to “terminate” me)
That said, I, as an immigrant to the US, I also despise the far-right. I never supported the republican party I always supported Democrats, despite me being pro-gun (cuz I’m not a single-issue voter), and more specifically, I support progressivism, like I liked Bernie the moment I heard about the Medicare 4 All and that sort of stuff (but wasn’t old enough to vote at the time). Like why the fuck would I support an ideology that wants to deport me? Lmfao. I know my history, I know of the Chinese Exclusion Act. Don’t want that shit to happen again.
I like Mamdani (I’m not a New Yorker anymore, used to live in NYC), cuz I know he ain’t a communist (as in the authoritarian stuff). A Democratic Socialist is not a communist.
I have nuance, normie don’t understand shit and instantly defaults to campism.
Average American here … Please can we get some of that Foreign Intervention you speak of?
Pretty please?
Unfortunately it might come in the form of a nuke.
Here’s where to shoot pls https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/most-conservative-states
I asked my father for his thoughts on the situation, and he talked about how the Venezuelans could go back home to visit their families and that they were very excited. I sent him the Lemmy post from the Venezuelan that we all probably saw, and explained that there is a lot that is still unclear and how the US’s actions are very similar to the ones he’s seen throughout his life, especially post 9/11.
You make a great point, I do think we can see communities as a monoculture sometimes, or that they are at least portrayed like that in the media (undocumented=illegal criminal/gang member) which is just blatantly false.
I do wonder, what % of anti-trump people would be okay witha foreign power using a military raid to arrest him while killing secret service personnel to do it. It’s a nonzero number for sure… but how high. Somone should totally do a poll.
The problem with your take is that you’re still applying liberal values to foreign policy that the USA has ignored for decades - they have been fascists in regards to other shithole countries, even Obama. So what do you think would be wrong with this? Why would anyone with half a brain object to this?
Imagine it was Hitler in 1940 Germany. How many countries are defacto at war with the US, as the US defines war, e.g. sanctions are an act of war. Is Trump and his regime not a fascist regime that should be removed from power? Same with Netanjaho of course.
A malicious tumor should be excised. I do not have the money to buy the laws for this, but it’s still the morally correct answer, no matter if you’re in favor of a utilitarian, principles or kantian ethics.
My take? I legit asked a question to get other people answers. Somehow you wrote up that whole thing about an opinion I didn’t give, and didn’t even answer the question.
Your question is an infohazard
I’m not white so if this happens while leaving the rest of the government left intact (similar to the Venezuela situation), then the next in line will invoke martial law and non-whites like me will definitely end up in a concentration camp, so no I do not approve of this. I’m also foreign-born so I’d be the top of the target list.
I dunno. I don’t think vance would feel a need to keep doung what trump was doing. Vance would want to run in 2028, so he would probably try to take the “healer” side. He can’t carry trumps base anyway.
That said, sounds like your answer is that if it benefitted you, you would be fine with it, and if it didn’t, you wouldn’t.
It’s super hard to do the math on what that’d look like honestly. I’m not even sure we’d change handlers. The guys at the apparent top aren’t masterminds; they’re just faces and voices, perhaps scapegoats for more capable people pulling strings.
Even if it’s Trump, it’s still wrong.
But what percent do you think would say it was right because it was trump?
YSK Maduro was fully impeached by the Venezuelan version of Congress and he used his military power to just stay in office and further silence dissent. Your post is either ill informed at best or at worst propaganda. The US does a lot of terrible things and this likely not the way or time to do this. 20-25% of Venezuelans have left and those were the ones with the will or luck to do so. Imagine how many others want to leave. Of the 75-80% of the population maybe support has grown just using math of the opposers leaving. Those people probably want to go back to their country if it were in a state to return to.
That’s not what the ACTUAL Venezuelans are saying though
Point to me which statement I made was ill informed or propagandistic. I never said Maduro has majority support, I said the opposite in fact, or that everyone over there loves Maduro. Just that they don’t to a person hate him like the Venezuelans do over here and warning people not to take their opinions as representative of Venezuelans as a whole.
Many news outlets are showing cheering crowds in south Florida as a sign Venezuelans are happy for this. Like I said in the original post, yes they do represent a large chunk of Venezuelans who hate Maduro and left. The opinions of Venezuelans who like Maduro and stayed are noticeably absent though and they represent another large chunk of the population.
I never said to outright dismiss there opinions, just to know that it’s biased and to be aware that there are differing opinions, how is that propaganda?
Oh yes, the 7.9 million wealthy millionaires that…walked through a deadly jungle… to get to the US.
Please, Lemmy, stop trying to talk about Venezuelans as if you know shit. You don’t know jack.
Also, this post is extremely xenophobic, racist and classicist, the fact that mods let it stand is a shame.
Never said they were all millionaires, only that they tend to be wealthier. In general immigrants from developing countries are on the higher end of income from the country they emigrate from.
Also 7.9 million Venezuelans did not cross the Darien gap, most Venezuelan migrants stayed in South America in neighboring countries like Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador. Those that could afford it did make their way to the US but not all of them crossed the Darien gap and could’ve taken alternate safer and more expensive routes, if not legal routes including hopping on a plane.
I fail to see how it’s any of those things you just mentioned, I didn’t say don’t listen to Venezuelans or even don’t listen to the Venezuelans in the US, I’m pointing out the biases that that group possess and telling people not to overgeneralize and think “all the Venezuelans here are cheering, so every Venezuelan must love this” . Saying that emigre Venezuelans are representative of Venezuelans as a whole would be racist, classist, xenophobic etc.
Still xenophobic. And your source is very open that it has selection bias and aggregation methodological issues. Essentially, it describes how migration as an aggregate, all across the world seems to function, disregarding individual peculiarities, within the people they managed to access. Migration from India to the UK doesn’t function the same as migration from Lybia to France, or Mexico to the USA and most definitely not from Venezuela to the myriad of counties the diaspora has found themselves in.
Poor immigrants do not account in this data, as they weren’t interviewed, are the most likely to be undocumented, and thus avoid attention and refuse interviews the most. It also most definitely ignores the peculiarities of Venezuelan migration. It might inform some political decision makers on a very broad and vague way. But it is an extraordinarily narrow, incomplete and impractical understanding of the issue.
Maduro and Trump are friends
Maduro gets to escape his country and save face instead of being assassinated or executed.
Trump gets to manufacture a conflict so he can start martial law and become a dictator, and to distract from us learning he came inside little girls.
The only thing this is about is Trump getting PERSONAL control of the oil, so he can be as wealthy as his friends the Saudis.
I don’t know about this. He’s gotta know that it’s incredibly unlikely that he’ll live to see any profits from Venezuelan oil. It’ll take way longer than he’s got left to actually make a sizable amount of money from it.
I don’t know why anyone is buying that propaganda. They’ve been stopping huge oil tankers filled with Venezuelan oil. They’re producing enough oil that we wanted it, and plenty of other countries are pissed that we’re taking it from them.
Of course Trump only cares about the oil. Has everyone been asleep for the last decade?
Trump doesn’t have any friends, and by that I mean his severe narcissism prevents his brain from ever being able to form healthy two-way personal relationships with anyone. In his mind, everyone else exists solely to service or benefit him, even those in his own family. He desperately wants to impress those he sees as powerful, like Kim, Erdoğan, and Putin, so he does things that he thinks will make them like him.
Him and Maduro have sucked each other’s dicks in speeches plenty.
He’s a dictator Trump is close with. That’s who Trump’s friends are
Jesus this is a bad take
80 people were killed, cities were bombed, and we’ve got shits on here doing “it was an inside job, aktuly”
Fucking vile.
So its like American Cubans?
Exactly like American Cubans
And most groups really. The dynamics are often the same. We see the folks who were wealthy and discontent enough to leave. It can’t be overstated how expensive it can be to move to the US from some places. People have to save for years just for the airfare.
Wealthy? They literally were asking for food on the streets and sleeping in the parks
We’re taking about on the scale of their home country. Most Venezuelans couldn’t even manage to get themselves here to be beggars.
Which is more tragic. Imagine starving to death in your own country and o ly the ones who have $20 with luck can go out. How this is a justification for maduros regime?
What? It’s not. The point stands that mostly in the US you meet a very select group of people from other countries, usually of more means, usually with some reason why they left. You are working very hard to not understand something pretty basic. It’s like you’ve never known an immigrant.
I don’t care about US dude, I am talking about the street of Peru, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador so full of beggar homeless Venezuelan people
And Turkish people in Europe.
You spelled Gusano wrong
At this point more like their kids.
Please, Mr. Gusano is my father. Call me class traitor
People who expatriate from their home country typically dont have nice things to say about it. Its scary to me that so many people uncritically accept their opinions as fact.
Uncritically accepting anything is always a problem. In this case, American Venezuelans are not representative of their entire home country, as OP says. But on the other hand they likely know more about Venezuela than the average American, so I wouldn’t reject what they have to say categorically either.
Its been years since I left my country (not Venezuela) and I love it.
Still, I like to joke that people that leave a country (like myself) are weird or phrased slightly differently they’re statistically not representative. I’ve noticed that I have a habit of meeting a small number of people from a country and overgeneralising and that’s particularly error prone when they’re traveler’s I’ve met somewhere or expats
In this case though, as much as I’d argue the US is violating the law and international balance in a way that I think could lead to some futures I don’t like, I still think its reasonable for a lot of individuals to want a leader that causes harm to no longer be the leader. It’s also pretty human to no longer care how that happens.
I’m ignorant on the ground but I’m not sure that focusing on the possible overgeneralisation is that productive. It kind of reminds me of early issues with ICE in the US: the right to defend yourself being removed is a problem regardless of if they’re a good or bad guy since the same logic can be applied to anyone. The good guy bad guy thing is very effective at motivating mobs though
It’s scary that so many people uncritically accept any opinions as fact
Also a bit of hypocrisy decrying Maduro’s illegitimate government and then cheering on your own.
Dear Europe,
It seems it’s now ok to depose a criminal leader by force. Just sayin. Hint.
-Americans
I like this, since their country can’t seem to prosecute them it is up to other countries!
Can we start kidnapping every criminal leader and putting them on trial? Also, can we do previous leaders as well. There should be a cell ready for every previous POTUS.
In political science, we determine the opinion of a populace using something called elections, and well, you can see how that went…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Venezuelan_presidential_election
So poly sci says that all russians love putin? And kim jung un (or whatever his name is) is the most popular leader in the world?
There’s a big difference between winning a rigged election, and losing an election but staying in power anyway.
So then how does poly sci determine the will of the people when an election is rigged?
That’s the funny thing about Venezuela. The U.S. criticized Chavez’s election victories. So Chavez put in some of the best election infrastructure in the world. And because of that, it was abundantly clear that Maduro rigged his election.
That is the best part, it doesn’t.
The will of the people, lol
AKA what propaganda they have been spoon fed their whole life you mean…
Probably more legit than US elections
Like me complaining about people who don’t live here in México but love to post propaganda for the goverment in the fediverse.
it’s also likely they know the formula: “show support not protest because protest will get you ICE’d.”
You don’t know Venezuelans if you think this way lol! Do you think Venezuelans with papers care about “getting ICE’d”?
I’m not saying Trump wouldn’t try this. I’m saying that your comment shows lack of context.
Edit: keep on with the downvotes. I know what I’m talking about lol!
Sample size of 3: my naturalized citizen (from Venezuela as an infant) D&D buddy is concerned AF. His (also naturalized) parents are more blithe about the current political climate.
Thank you for providing backup.
“only 33% of naturalized citizens from Venezuela have a go bag packed” is not the support you think it is.
Why did you downvote me? I wasn’t being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.
But anyway. This was fun.
One last question, what is a “go bag packet”?
A “go bag” is a bag you have for when you need to leave (“go”) in a hurry. For example, you might have a change of clothes, cash, hygiene items, your passport(s), snacks, a week’s worth of prescription meds, first aid kit.
My friend has one because he’s an immigrant and doesn’t feel secure in the current political environment. I have one because I’m trans and I don’t feel secure in the current political environment.
I downvoted you because it felt skeevy to be told I was providing backup to you, when I didn’t feel my data was particularly supportive. It felt like you putting words in my mouth.
I see. Yeah, I do have friends with go bags. I don’t feel I need one yet, but yes, the possibility to leave “sooner rather than later” is a conversation I started having with my closest ones.
I’m sorry you have to go through all of this too. I personally think it’s some major bullshit how the trans community is being used as a form of division. It’s so vile. Good to know you’re alert and prepared though. And hopefully “this too shall pass” remains true.
I’ll say yes… Yes they do.
Trump has made it crystal clear that any non-white South American is subject to deportation on the whim of Steven Miller.
There’s 100 million Americans of latin/african/asian ancestry to deport, after all.
Lilywhite America is gonna want to stay the dominant group, any way - legal, moral or not - it can.
And again, you don’t know Venezuelans, since there are plenty of them who are Italian and Portuguese descendants, and they are as entitled as the white race they represent.
I’m telling you, man. I know what I’m talking about because I know my people. I have all the context.
So… they’re olive-skinned southern Europeans.
Unless they can pass as northern WASPS, and they do not have “ethnic” sounding names, they can try and act as white as they want. However, it will only be a matter of time.
President Drumpf is angling for the 4th Reich and self-loathing acolytes like Steven Miller will happily oblige.
elbarto777 my friend, I know MY people as well.
So… they’re olive-skinned southern Europeans.
There you go. That’s the phrase that tells me that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Good-bye.
Uh-huh. And you’re being blind to how the people in this administration are thinking. Your white-passing Venezuelans are on borrowed time.
Let me add that Trump has only groused about the lack of Scandinavian and Germanic - that is, minty-green white northern europeans - coming to America.
Decades ago, people were mocking this kind of thinking. (Can’t find the videos aywhere, but scroll the page and take note of the BUSH ads that were spliced into that particular episode. The third one in particular. I remember seeing it the night it aired.)
We laughed our asses off at the absurdity of it all, now it’s become political reality and I am not laughing anymore.
Take care.
You too take care.
. . . Do you think ICE cares about papers?
Of course not. But I’m talking about Venezuelans, not ICE.
It’s as if you asked me if an enraged, untrained pitbull wouldn’t act upon its impulses because the police could shoot at it.
Nobody cares if you know what you’re talking about. Support the narrative or shut your mouth.
Lol, yup, I definitely noticed this sentiment here. Oh well.
where did i mention papers? ICE is detaining CITIZENS for crying out loud. Support for trump is support for fascism and genocide.
Again, you don’t know Venezuelans with papers, fascism or not.
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amd neither do you. doesn’t change the facts about trump lol.
You guys are arguing different points.
ICE will deport anyone it wants, papers or not.
Venezuelians with papers apparently don’t give a shit if they get deported.
These aren’t mutually exclusive facts.
Thank you. That’s exactly my point. But apparently, non-Venezuelans are ready to tell me, a Venezuelan in his 40s, that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
i’m saying thanks to the power dynamic here (think: “exploitation or stuff HR would frown at…”) - the dynamic existing means the folks cheering in the street cannot be considered truly cheering. it can only be considered, at best, an example of consent being manufactured thanks to that ICE enforced power dynamic. 😬
edit: also, appreciate your reply
And you would be wrong. Those Venezuelans cheering are honestly and extremely happy that Maduro is gone. They were the first ones to leave Venezuela when Chavez came into power. They’re not playing North Koreans in fear lol.
How would you know anyway? How can you back up your claim? Have you spoken to any Venezuelans besides me, but face to face?
Lol, “a Venezuelan who was born and raised in Venezuela, lived among all kinds of fellow Venezuelan people, rich poor, decent, criminals, law abiding and opportunistic, selfless and egocentric, saw it fall in the hands of fascism, then moved to the U.S., got a Master’s degree, and had to take a U.S. civics test to become an American citizen, doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.
Sure, man.
it’s a thread on the internet.
Indeed.
